urbanSTL

Steve was also kind enough to provide a link on his site so you can email Alderwoman Florida. I suggest as many people as possible send her something...kindly worded of course, asking her to please reconsider her position, and that the mcdonald's be pulled up to the corner or at least one side brought up to the sidewalk.



The earlier she gets the message that many are opposed to this, the tougher it will be for her to push ahead with it.

Trent, good work on your correspondence to Ms. Florida. This is an urgent matter. Look at Grand & Arsenal compared to Grand & Chippewa. Which intersection has stood the test of time? The sprawl model does not work on Grand. It isn't too late, this section of Grand can be rebuilt properly.

I'm a member of the Gravois Park Neighborhood Association. We do not want that nasty, filthy McDonald's to move across the street into our neighborhood. In fact, we want it to go away. IT SHOULD BE CLOSED DOWN!!!!! Build the senior housing (and I can't really believe there's a demand for it) at the corner of Winnebago and Grand. Whatever is built at the corner of Grand and Winnebago will receive a tax abatement. This should not go to McDonald's. They need to pay their taxes!!!



Alderwoman Jennifer Florida lied to the Gravois Park Neighborhood Association. She said that it would not move into Gravois Park. She told every other neighborhood in her ward about it except for ours. She did this because she knows that we don't want this McDonald's in our neighborhood.



The current McDonald's at Chippewa and Grand is being forced to conform to McDonald's Corporation standards (i.e. no funky lower drive-thru) or lose its franchise. I say let them rebuild on their current lot or shut down. Of course this would mean some sort of retaining wall to alleviate the whole grading situation. Rebuilding on the current site would cost more than building on the flat lot at Winnebago and Grand. However, the franchise owner, James Proctor, lives in a multi-million dollar home at #2 Westmoreland Place... he can afford a retaining wall.



Please help our neighborhood organization and the greater Grand and Gravois area. Please write Alderwoman Jennifer Florida and James Proctor, Mayor Slay, Barb Geisman (the Director for Economic Development), James Shrewsbury (President of the Board of Aldermen)and the McDonald's Corporation. Tell them that we won't stand for this kind of filthy, trash generating, suburban drive-thru mess.



We need your help!

Fed Up -- You are right on the money. Hold your ground! I drove down S. Grand a week ago and was astonished at how that once-lovely part of S.StL had come to look like a trashy suburban fast-food wasteland. I mean every f.f. joint known to man sits side-by-side down there now. If you want to kill a neighborhood, bring in a MacSlum. Same with Senior Housing and "workforce housing" -- these developments only benift the developer. I'll do my part and write to anyone who will listen.

Jeff Vanderlou wrote:If you want to kill a neighborhood, bring in a McSlum. Same with Senior Housing and "workforce housing" -- these developments only benift the developer.

That's the sort of suburban attitude with which many people disagree.



My own gripe is with thoughtless design and careless management -- not with mixed uses. Mixing retail and residential uses can work fine. And a neighborhood's density and economic/demographic diversity are among its most important characteristics of urbanity.

publiceye wrote:

Jeff Vanderlou wrote:If you want to kill a neighborhood, bring in a McSlum. Same with Senior Housing and "workforce housing" -- these developments only benift the developer.

... That's the sort of suburban attitude with which many people disagree...



There it is, "...the sort of suburban attitutude..." If you don't agree, pit the city folk against the suburbs. Well, enough people do agree (or have meekly gone along) with those who Do build these neighborhood-killing projects. Their mess and blight is everywhere in the city. I've lived long enough, and lived in enough city neighborhoods to have seen how these kinds of projects destroy. They benefit a few greedy people, and undo the hard work of people trying rebuild their neighborhoods. Fed Up has it right.

In line with PE's comment, I don't think land use (fast food, affordable housing, senior housing) is the problem as much as design (pedestrian access, urban form, surrounding context).



Locally undesired land uses (LULU's) are exactly what feeds the segregate/buffer mentality of land use planning. Urban planning should ideally be more urban design standards instead of simply looking up a permitted use in an arbitrary zoning table.



Traditional land use zoning review has essentially turned everyplace into looking like anyplace. But locally devised standards can help guide development to respect its urban context.



Granted, South Grand at Winnebago is not Euclid in the CWE, but it's still highly urban. And at a time when the SSNB tower and Melba are to be revitalized, it would be a completely wasted opportunity to relocate a poorly managed business, provide it subsidy, and permit an entirely auto-oriented design along an otherwise very walkable street.

Thank You Fed Up for telling it exactly like it is.



The construction of any drive-thru restaurant is directly against building ordinance for Keystone Place.



The construction is eligible for tax abatement, although Ald. Florida assures me it isn't!



The site plan for the McDonald's is a joke with 47 parking spaces and two, two way curb cuts off Grand. This is not only NOT urban, pedestrian friendly, it's a suburban joke. Are they planning to redirect I-44 next to it so they can use all that parking?



The senior housing development hasn't been approved. Is there any lack of available apartments in this area?



I am astounded that Ald. Florida or any other government official is supporting ignoring existing ordinance, use of tax money, and ignoring the wishes of the residents of the neighborhood.



Ah yes, the McDonald's is the filthiest, most poorly run restaurant in the city. Maybe they just need our tax money to improve their business?



Email everyone you know and start writing letters unless you want to at this mess for the next 20 years.

Everyone...I heard back from Jennifer Florida today.

Dear Sam:

The project is in planning and review. I have only seen a rendering of

the building. Steve Pattersons information is not accurate.

Jennifer

Me:

Ms. Florida,



If you have only seen a rendering, then what is planned? Is it a street facing building, with parking in the rear? Because anything less is not acceptable. There should be no parking in front of the building, no drive thru lanes in the front of the building, and at most one curb cut on Grand. If there is more than one curb cut (really, optimally there should be zero curb cuts since it's on a corner and can have rear access from Winnebago), then the building is not urban.



Again, thanks for your response.



Sam Snelling

Honestly, I can support the idea of no McDonalds. It doesn't bother me if it's there or not. But if it's gonna be there, it better be a building that fits in with the ubran setting.



Everyone, this is a high priority of St. Louis Urban Progress. We, and myself especially, are committed to doing what is necessary to see that this project is killed as is. I recommend that anyone who is against this project to stay tuned for a meeting on this topic in the near future.

I have no problem with McDonald's on Grand as long as it remains at the current site with any help from the city. Let the owners do whatever it takes to build a better restaurant there. Why not put the McDonald's in the first floor of the senior complex?



Allowing them to build at the new site REGARDLESS of the design is against the Keystone Place development and is tax abated. I resent having our funds spent in this manner. It seems to me that Pyramid would like the present McDonald's site and they've arranged this swap to be agreeable to the both of them. If Pyramid was so big, bad, and mighty why haven't they managed to finish Keystone Place as planned in a decade?



*Note to Ms. Florida*



Get Pyramid to complete Keystone Place as originally planned and I might consider that you care for the area and your intentions are good!

Is Florida has only seen a rendering, how can she publicly announce it to be pedestrian friendly? Without first seeing a site plan, the judgment she made is impossible.

trent wrote:Honestly, I can support the idea of no McDonalds. It doesn't bother me if it's there or not. But if it's gonna be there, it better be a building that fits in with the urban setting.

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether there's a McDonalds on South Grand or not. This location is poorly run compared to others in the area, and I'm not sure a new building will fix what's wrong with the operation.



But like you, I want to make sure that a new South Grand McDonalds, regardless of where a replacement restaurant is built, fits properly with its urban neighbors to the north (particularly the South Side and Melba buildings).



I must admit that I am unfamiliar with the initial plans for Keystone Place. Can someone tell me exactly what was proposed to replace the demolished Sears at the Grand/Winnebago intersection when the project was first approved?



Fed Up, welcome to the forum! As trent said above, St. Louis Urban Progress members, myself included, are very concerned about the proposal as it stands and we are committed to defeating it.



I would suggest watching this space for future STL-UP meeting announcements, as we would definitely like to work with the GPNA and other groups/individuals that are opposed to this plan.



I have just a couple more quick thoughts on this:



Alderwoman Florida has said the site plan posted on Urban Review St. Louis is inaccurate, yet she has only seen a rendering of the proposed restaurant. Granted, it might be possible to deduce some changes made to the plan based on the rendering, but when can we expect to see a revised site plan?



I want to be fair to Alderwoman Florida, but based on what seems to be her indifference to incorporating true urban design elements, can we expect the new McDonalds site plan to look that much different than the one posted on Urban Review STL?



Also, while I take a neutral view on the land use issues per se, I find it interesting that we're talking about replacing an already-existing (not to mention poorly-run) fast food restaurant when nearby Burger King just closed over the weekend. And is there really significant demand for senior housing in the area? Keep in mind that no one, TMK at least, has seen a rendering or a site plan of the proposed senior housing at the current McDonalds site. Is this a smoke-and-mirrors tactic to get McDonalds into a new, tax-abated location? And if Pyramid is truly serious about a senior complex there, can they do better than the insulting (IMHO, at least) Sullivan Place complex that's underway in north St. Louis?



Ultimately, it would be nice to hear more from Pyramid about their plans, of course.

Oh, come on now, people! You can't really have anything against Senior Housing per se, now do you? I mean, McCormack/Barron has built some very nice senior developments, such as the one at Vandeventer and Olive. Let's just hold this development to high DESIGN standards, and leave the class warfare out of it.



Of course, I realize that the McDonalds question is a differant matter entirely.

Framer wrote:Oh, come on now, people! You can't really have anything against Senior Housing per se, now do you? I mean, McCormack/Barron has built some very nice senior developments, such as the one at Vandeventer and Olive. Let's just hold this development to high DESIGN standards, and leave the class warfare out of it.

Perhaps I left myself open to interpretation, but I have absolutely nothing against senior housing being built on either the current McDonalds site OR the Grand/Winnebago proposal. I do know that Alderman Schmid has questioned the demand for senior housing in the area, and I think some places that were once for seniors only no longer have that restriction.



I don't know whether or not there is demand for senior housing; I'll leave that one to those that know the market far better than I do. I am fine with the senior housing proposed for the Grand/Chippewa corner provided that the plans for it actually exist. I don't know of anyone that's actually seen plans for this. It should also be an urban-friendly, high-quality design, two things that (IMHO) cannot be said for Pyramid's Sullivan Place.



And I think if McDonalds builds on the Grand/Winnebago corner, it shouldn't be just a high-quality urban design, but it should also not be entitled to receive tax abatements/incentives. It will be enough of a battle, however, simply to ensure that McDonalds is held to a higher design standard.

Well, the SSNB can't just be an island surrounded by crap. The addition of the Melba will help, but the area does need a little more residential influence IMO.

The original plan for Keystone Place was to have retail on Grand, however it was more in the form of a strip center.

Now Florida is complaining about personal attacks. Welcome to politics, Alderwoman Florida. Guess what happens when you piss people off, they attack you.

trent wrote:Well, the SSNB can't just be an island surrounded by crap.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but that's why I'd like to eventually see a comprehensive plan for retail and residential development along Grand from Utah Place south to Keokuk or Alberta streets. Ald. Florida has said before that such a plan exists, but that's news to me and apparently everyone else out there.

I'm not for protesting at her home. IMHO, there is a public and a private life, I'd prefer to stay out of her private life. There is plenty other impactful stuff that we can do without assailing her at her home. I do think we need to look into peppering the neighborhood with flyers, talking to people in the neighborhood, and joining with neighborhood organizations and businesses (especially those that would be affected negatively by a suburban McDonalds) to kill this project.



Another issue that I have, is that I've read that the McDonalds corporation has threatened to take away the franchise owners store if they fail to comply with normal drive thru standards (which the current store fails to do). I don't want a private business owner to lose his store in this situation. Whether we agree with the way he runs his store or not, it's still his business. I'd like to attack the planning of the new McDonalds, Corporate McDonalds, and those in charge of putting this in place. I'm not saying that I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm not so quick to say lets kick McDonalds out of the area.

trent wrote:I'm not for protesting at her home. IMHO, there is a public and a private life, I'd prefer to stay out of her private life. There is plenty other impactful stuff that we can do without assailing her at her home. I do think we need to look into peppering the neighborhood with flyers, talking to people in the neighborhood, and joining with neighborhood organizations and businesses (especially those that would be affected negatively by a suburban McDonalds) to kill this project.



Another issue that I have, is that I've read that the McDonalds corporation has threatened to take away the franchise owners store if they fail to comply with normal drive thru standards (which the current store fails to do). I don't want a private business owner to lose his store in this situation. Whether we agree with the way he runs his store or not, it's still his business. I'd like to attack the planning of the new McDonalds, Corporate McDonalds, and those in charge of putting this in place. I'm not saying that I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm not so quick to say lets kick McDonalds out of the area.

I agree with everything you said. We need to keep things focused, and not make things personal.



However, I seriously question Ald. Florida's definition of a "personal attack", since I'd say most of the criticism I've heard regarding this project has been quite constructive. I think she's simply trying to deflect criticism or marginalize opponents, as I think her skin is thick enough to withstand the blows one encounters in politics.



And I don't think Ald. Florida helped her case on the report I saw on Fox 2 News at 6 just now...she said something to the effect of "residents can't always get what they want where they want it," and talked about how the neighborhood "needed the development".



So far all we have is a zero-sum relocation of McDonalds, and a poorly-planned one at that. Florida says the land swap is a private deal and she's unaware of the specifics. And no one has released any renderings, site plans, etc. for the senior housing that's supposed to rise on the present McDonalds site.



Our immediate mission at STL-UP, as I see it at least, is to narrow our definition of what development we want to see on both sites. Some neighborhood residents, and perhaps the GPNA, are opposed to McDonalds relocating to Grand/Winnebago, period, the end. I support the restaurant relocating to that site as long as the building/drive-through design conforms to urban standards, allowing for additional development on the parcel and ideally a larger buffer for nearby residents.



So, do we want to discuss this project at our meeting next Thursday, or would it be in our best interests to set up a separate one so we can focus on the Opus CWE development?