urbanSTL

Alex Ihnen wrote:^ So what's your answer (though I suspect we can all guess)?

If only we had a Bubba Tea downtown...

A Bubble Tea would really take downtown to the next level. Without one there's just not the same incentive to live, work, or play downtown.

rawest1 wrote:As a poor law student,

Which law school do you go to?

I do think from a downtown growth standpoint, Culinaria has been a boon for the Central Business District. I don't have a full list of new businesses within a one-block radius, but off the top of my head: Local Harvest, Bailey's, that Fiat showroom, a bank, Urgent Care, Clarkson, Great Clips.

Some people upthread argued Culinaria would stifle business? I think the proof points in the other direction. There surely were some early casualties (City Grocer/Gourmet) whose services were duplicated by Culinaria, but you're quickly starting to see an honest-to-goodness quality-of-life goods/services district of businesses grow there, and the "radical" city-model Schnucks is, in my opinion, the reason for that.

Alex Ihnen wrote:I'm surprised Schnuck's hasn't quickly built a Culinaria in the CWE (or elsewhere).

A year ago, I was told that Culinaria was going into the new BJC outpatient building at Euclid & FP.

Kevin B wrote:I do think from a downtown growth standpoint, Culinaria has been a boon for the Central Business District. I don't have a full list of new businesses within a one-block radius, but off the top of my head: Local Harvest, Bailey's, that Fiat showroom, a bank, Urgent Care, Clarkson, Great Clips.

Most of these are replacements of businesses that closed after Culinaria opened (Pasta House Pronto->Local Harvest, Espresso Mod->Great Clips (or is that the Pet Store/Avon store??), City Grocers->Bailey's), and at least one (Urgent Care) existed before Culinaria.

So while some of them may reflect new business in a sense, I would not call them "growth," and certainly not stemming from the act of Culinaria opening. Similar stories played out with Pita Pit (previously Baladas) and Verizon (previously Luigis and another place). The truly new businesses could be roughly balanced out by businesses that have closed entirely (Gregory's/Thai place/BBQ place (after Culinaria opened)/soon-to-be Sauce on the Side, and Chods/LaBeeBees).

It will continue to attract residents and businesses. Yes places closed right after Culinaria opened but the area has now recovered and will eventually grow.

I too would like to see Culinaria open in the Loop or CWE. The new construction building planned for Euclid and West Pine would be a good spot.

Not sure exactly how to put the feeling into words, but for some time I get a general depressed kinda vibe when in the Culinaria. Found myself actually kind of missing City Grocers when shopping there yesterday. Anyone else?

Its the feeling of 'Gosh. We lost the Century building for this?!"

terence d wrote:Not sure exactly how to put the feeling into words, but for some time I get a general depressed kinda vibe when in the Culinaria. Found myself actually kind of missing City Grocers when shopping there yesterday. Anyone else?

I appreciated City Grocers, but I don't miss it. Prices on staples could be jaw-dropping. That's not to say I enjoy shopping at Schnucks, especially a couple of the really snotty checkers.

Its the feeling of 'Gosh. We lost the Century building for this?!"

No, more:

• - Many of the employees seem dispirited in general. Not expecting them to be constantly jumping for joy as proud employees of a Schnucks Market, but either literally, when asking them "How's it going", or figuratively in body language, theres often a general response of "I'm here" (*sigh*)
  
  - Seemingly a larger percentage of rude shoppers than I find elsewhere. (I have no stats to back this up)
  
  - And yes, what negative impact it may have had on existing businesses or other businesses that might have otherwise been established in the immediate area over the past few years

Not making any big statements here. Just a simple observation.

gone corporate wrote:General question: Would the ancillary businesses which closed shortly after Culinaria opened still be around today if Culinaria wasn't there, taking into consideration the Great Recession / Lesser Depression that we're in today? While City Grocers may still be around otherwise, I highly doubt Espresso Mod would (and I liked that place, playing old Michael Caine and James Bond movies all day).

I guess on Espresso Mod, it comes down to your opinion or that of the owner:

Brit Paul Charsley owned the 1,041-square-foot British-inspired coffeehouse, which also sold pastries, gooey butter cake, sandwiches and gelato.

“Culinaria killed us,” he said Friday, noting that since Culinaria opened his sales were down 40 percent.

While one may have questions about his math, it certainly carries more weight than a random person's opinion.

I can't believe you guys are complaining about Culinaria. It's the best grocery store in the city and we can use more of this model. The big supermarket is so depressing.

Most if not all the restaurants that closed after Culinaria's opening have been recuperated. Bailys Range, Local Harvest, new Calzone place opening, Pita Pit. And other businesses have opened next door, Clarkson, Fifth Third, etc.

I'm not sure it's "us guys" complaining.

From the OP:

"Since the Culinaria has opened, it's been a struggle," said Daniel Rhodes, co-owner of The Original SoupMan franchise on 11th Street.

Rhodes estimated he's lost 30 percent of his business to Culinaria, which offers cups of soup for about half the price. "It's very unfortunate for the little people. All of us are hurting."

I think there has been some resurgence although much of that has been filling in some gaps left after Culinaria's opening. But the consternation would not be nearly as pronounced if the closings were part of a natural business cycle; places close and open all the time. The underlying question is, did the direct subsidy of the Culinaria development unfairly favor Schnucks at the expense of the types of small places that everyone seems to boast about about having in a neighborhood?

Count me in the "complaining about this is absurd" camp.

A "British inspired coffee house" closed? Sure that had nothing to do with the opening of other coffee houses, or you know, the fact that no one wants to go to a "British inspired coffee house?"

And with regard to the Soupman - might not have been a more over-rated place EVER. Everyone feel bad that Culinaria is causing the dickhead selling $12 cups of soup to lose business. IT'S SOUP! Phenomenal recession busting business plan on this one. Sell the cheapest meal available to make for 5 million percent mark-ups. The recession definitely had no effect. It was culinaria!

Why exactly is anyone crying for businesses that couldn't survive the entrance to the market of ONE full service grocery store? And why are we still having this discussion? This is asinine.

Culinaria is an awesome addition to downtown and provides an absolutely and unequivocally ESSENTIAL neighborhood component - the grocery store. Downtown's continued population growth will rely heavily upon the presence of this store. The places that closed had bad products at price points that were not competetive. End of Story.

Culinaria sells pizza. How in the hell is Pi able to survive?!?!?

newstl2020 wrote:Count me in the "complaining about this is absurd" camp.

A "British inspired coffee house" closed? Sure that had nothing to do with the opening of other coffee houses, or you know, the fact that no one wants to go to a "British inspired coffee house?"

And with regard to the Soupman - might not have been a more over-rated place EVER. Everyone feel bad that Culinaria is causing the dickhead selling $12 cups of soup to lose business. IT'S SOUP!

Why exactly is anyone crying for businesses that couldn't survive the entrance to the market of ONE full service grocery store? And why are we still having this discussion? This is asinine.

Culinaria is an awesome addition to downtown and provides an absolutely and unequivocally ESSENTIAL neighborhood component - the grocery store. Downtown's continued population growth will rely heavily upon the presence of this store. The places that closed had bad products at price points that were not competetive. End of Story.

I think you missed the point. If Culinaria's game is so great and their service so "essential", and they did it without $4M+ in direct subsidies, then that's the natural ebb and flow of the market; you'd get your wish and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Apparently the "price points" (prices) of the previous occupants were competitive enough that they survived and did well, some for a number years.

Despite all the subsidy, my understanding is that Culinaria is just about breaking even at its current "price point."

I'm sure Craig Heller would be interested in your opinion of his bad products.

Is "End of Story" equivalent to "'Nuff said"?