urbanSTL

^So you think $12 soup and "British coffee" are items that could have survived the last 3 years if only Culinaria hadn't been there?

Businesses of all kinds get subsidies all the time.

Answer this simple question. Was downtown better off before with sh*tty overpriced soup and British coffee, or is it better positioned to grow now with an accessible grocery store selling the essential items residents need to be able to live in an area effectively?

I really don't understand your argument here.

CRAIG HELLER NEVER WANTED TO RUN A GROCERY STORE! HE IS A LOFT DEVELOPER! HE CLOSED CITY GROCERS AS FAST AS HE COULD BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE TO PROVIDE THE ESSENTIAL AMENITY TO SELL HIS LOFTS ANYMORE! HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS HAVE TO BE SAID?

Geez. Reading comprehension. It really is key.

Edit - Sorry. I shouldn't have "yelled."

newstl2020 wrote:^So you think $12 soup and "British coffee" are items that could have survived the last 3 years if only Culinaria hadn't been there?

Businesses of all kinds get subsidies all the time.

Answer this simple question. Was downtown better off before with sh*tty overpriced soup and British coffee, or is it better positioned to grow now with an accessible grocery store selling the essential items residents need to be able to live in an area effectively?

I really don't understand your argument here.

There was no $12 cup of soup. "'Nuff said."

Espresso Mod didn't serve "British Coffe". It served coffee just like any coffeehouse, with a British/James-Bond "theme." I went there every day. I stopped when it closed. Had you even been there, or do you just like making a ridiculous point about "British Coffee"?

I like the false dichotomy though. I think a grocery store is great to have downtown. But if it's so essential, could it have been built without $4M in direct subsidy? It's just about treading water as is, if what I hear is correct (and it may not be).

If you are really being so obtuse as to think the discussion here is "Culinaria GOOD vs. Culinaria BAD," then you're going to be talking in circles for a long time.

^Do you really think Culinaria killed Expresso Mod? Honestly?


And Culinaria isn't essential to Schnucks, the company. It is essential to the residents of downtown and the future residents of downtown who need things like groceries to live. That is why the subsidies were needed and rightly provided by the city. As the city helps the store survive, and the store helps attract residents to the city, the store becomes profitable and the city grows a much needed residential tax base. This expanding residential populace helps support new businesses which in turn attract more visitors who hopefully enjoy their experience and contemplate spending more time in and maybe even moving into the city, wanting to join in on the momentum of the growing and vibrant urban area.

Once again, I really do not understand your argument past the point of "I liked expresso mod and it's failure as a business coincidentally correlated with the presence of Culinaria."

newstl2020 wrote:^Do you really think Culinaria killed Expresso Mod? Honestly?

And it isn't essential to Schnucks, the company. It is essential to the residents of downtown and the future residents of downtown who need things like groceries to live. That is why the subsidies were needed and rightly provided by the city. As the city helps the store survive, and the store helps attract residents to the city, the store becomes profitable and the city grows a much needed residential tax base.

Once again, I really do not understand your argument.

We'll not agree on this, ever. Some people, like you, condone government intervention (and this project used federal, state, and local subsidy) on the local level to try to manipulate the market; others, like me, don't.

That is fair.


Do you enjoy the renovated buildings and revived downtown? (Hint - virtually all have been completed with historic tax credits which are - wait for it - provided by the government)

newstl2020 wrote:That is fair.


Do you enjoy the renovated buildings and revived downtown? (Hint - they were completed with historic tax credits which are - wait for it - provided by the government)

I hate to argue semantics, but tax credits aren't "provided" by the government in the same way that TIF funds are (by literally financing the project with the power of taxation). That said, I think they're nearly as distasteful, and I don't care one way or another about the renovated buildings downtown. Most are connected with lofts, which to me are expensive, in the worst school district in the state, and not my style or that of my family.

^Ha you are right, it was a quick response that did not delve into the actual differences. I was just using another example of generalized "government intervention" to counterpoint your example.

I get your point, but do you think downtown would be in a better place now without the rehabs, tax credits, TIFs for employers, etc? Sure, ideally these would not be a financing source anywhere in the country, leveling the playing field, but until that point the city needs to play ball within the confines of reality.

newstl2020 wrote: I get your point, but do you think downtown would be in a better place now without the rehabs, tax credits, TIFs for employers, etc? Sure, ideally these would not be a financing source anywhere in the country, leveling the playing field, but until that point the city needs to play ball within the confines of reality.

Downtown might be in a 'better' place, as the recipient of largesse; I don't really know. But the region as a whole is no better off because of it.

You could argue that government intervention in downtown development is a tit-for-tat for long-standing indirect (and plenty of past direct) subsidy of automobility, 'sprawl,' and so on. But playing tug of war with government money is wasteful and ultimately counterproductive - just look at the retail-saturated fiefdoms in the County for proof of that.

I argue that the subsidy 'needed' by downtown developers tries to make up just as much for for bad zoning; an inefficient, lumbering city government; and the difficulty of setting up shop in the city as it does for subsidy pulling development in other directions.

^Well said.

bprop wrote:I'm not sure it's "us guys" complaining.

From the OP:

"Since the Culinaria has opened, it's been a struggle," said Daniel Rhodes, co-owner of The Original SoupMan franchise on 11th Street.

Rhodes estimated he's lost 30 percent of his business to Culinaria, which offers cups of soup for about half the price. "It's very unfortunate for the little people. All of us are hurting."

I think there has been some resurgence although much of that has been filling in some gaps left after Culinaria's opening. But the consternation would not be nearly as pronounced if the closings were part of a natural business cycle; places close and open all the time. The underlying question is, did the direct subsidy of the Culinaria development unfairly favor Schnucks at the expense of the types of small places that everyone seems to boast about about having in a neighborhood?

The Soup Nazi's soup was really expensive. Worth it? I dunno. I'm sure Culinaria's soup is pretty good too. If Culinaria can provide better value, then great.

I can't believe people are still debating this years later... :/

^ So the past is not prologue? That's certainly one way to look at it.

^ What do you specifically mean as it relates to this issue?

innov8ion wrote:^ What do you specifically mean as it relates to this issue?

I mean that we can look back at the whole series of events leading up to the building and opening of Culinaria and decide if that development was worth $4M+ in direct taxpayer subsidy, when you net out all the benefits and costs. And, doing so critically doesn't mean that one wants to close Culinaria, or revisit the past, just that there is nuance beyond a simple "Culiaria Bad" or "Culinaria Good."

All neighborhoods need a full service grocery. This was the next step for the dt neighborhood resurgence. It's unfortunate, but expected, that there would be some collateral damage.

Culinaria is a magnet for foot traffic to OPO Square. The right mix of retailers surrounding Culinaria should really thrive off that foot traffic. Just look at how many smaller stores locate next to the big boxes in the county. They couldn't survive on their own.

bprop wrote:

innov8ion wrote:^ What do you specifically mean as it relates to this issue?

I mean that we can look back at the whole series of events leading up to the building and opening of Culinaria and decide if that development was worth $4M+ in direct taxpayer subsidy, when you net out all the benefits and costs. And, doing so critically doesn't mean that one wants to close Culinaria, or revisit the past, just that there is nuance beyond a simple "Culiaria Bad" or "Culinaria Good."

I think the state provided $4M+ which is really a drop in the bucket. Most people don't even stop to think about whether the subsidy to bring Culinaria was worth it or not. If you're in the area, it is. And future growth is dependent on it.

No system is completely fair. If you think the advent of Culinaria hurt you, suck it up and move on.

The topic does provide fodder for mental masturbation online, however.

innov8ion wrote:

bprop wrote:

innov8ion wrote:^ What do you specifically mean as it relates to this issue?

I mean that we can look back at the whole series of events leading up to the building and opening of Culinaria and decide if that development was worth $4M+ in direct taxpayer subsidy, when you net out all the benefits and costs. And, doing so critically doesn't mean that one wants to close Culinaria, or revisit the past, just that there is nuance beyond a simple "Culiaria Bad" or "Culinaria Good."

I think the state provided $4M+ which is really a drop in the bucket. Most people don't even stop to think about whether the subsidy to bring Culinaria was worth it or not. If you're in the area, it is. And future growth depends on it.

No system is completely fair. If you think the advent of Culinaria hurt you, suck it up and move on.

The topic does provide fodder for online forums, however.

Nice.

BTW, spending someone else's money on YOU tends to always be worth it. That I agree on.

bprop wrote:
Nice.

BTW, spending someone else's money on YOU tends to always be worth it. That I agree on.

You know the businesses that closed? Yeah, they were subsidized as well. A lot of subsidy and tax abatement made them possible. Therefore, the reason that people are crying is the same reason the object of the crying existed. *shrugs*

Culinaria caused us to lose a damn good Bubba Tea place with a super positive, friendly owner, you guys.

I do miss Espresso Mod - that was a fun little place. On the other hand, downtown would later get Park Avenue Coffee, which has been such a nice addition to the area.

^+1.
That $4million was worth every penny. Does anyone know how to get figures on how much tax revenue Culinaria had brought in since it opened?

I mean sh*t, the state wants to spend $55 million to build a second lane to ramp off the i55 to the 64 east. Really? Please promote more urban sprawl which will cost us even more down the road when we need to maintain it. /sarcasm

This discussion of the last few days has been good.Thanks to bprop for playing devils advocate. I would prefer to have an environment where the market is allwed to be more free, but that's not where we are. I like Culinaria and use it about 2x monthly. I love historic buildings and think the historic tax credit program is the best use of my tax dollars (since they are going to be confiscated anyway) that I have been. And the Bubble Tea guy--yep!

So what's a good use of the corner of the Paul Brown building (currently People's bank, closing soon) to take advantage of all that Culinaria-induced foot traffic?

Maybe PNC could play musical chairs and move into the People's National location in the Paul Brown. As the 7th largest bank in St. Louis, it'd be strange for PNC not to have a downtown location. And those storefronts in the Kiener garages do seem kind of dumpy and small. As for People's National, I don't see them being back anytime soon.

wabash wrote:Maybe PNC could play musical chairs and move into the People's National location in the Paul Brown. As the 7th largest bank in St. Louis, it'd be strange for PNC not to have a downtown location. And those storefronts in the Kiener garages do seem kind of dumpy and small. As for People's National, I don't see them being back anytime soon.

Isn't PNC at N Broadway & Pine? Not to say they can't play musical chairs and move to the OPO district.