Not so sure its about the business but rather the location. The location above is right next to the entrance to the metrolink. More people on foot walking right by it.
Are you talking about the one at 6th & Olive? I think there are 4 S'bux downtown.
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^ yup... we have four. The company-owned Starbucks on Olive and the 3 hotel ones. Plus a decent amount of competition. For donuts, not so much. Was there recent talk of a Pharoah's Donuts or something coming downtown?
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Which Starbucks? There are 4 of them.kbshapiro wrote:I'm curious why you guys feel a DD would be so successful downtown when the Starbucks we have (that's positioned real well IMO), does just fair?
I agree, DD would have zero competition. I also wouldn't mind seeing a local donut place such as Strange Donuts opening a place downtown.
None of them west of 9th Street.downtown2007 wrote:Which Starbucks? There are 4 of them.
Out of town visitors (especially from the East Coast) want/need their DD fix. I've had out of town clients gripe pretty loudly about the lack of a DD in downtown St. Louis. Plus doing donuts here at work either means Culinaria or running down to Johns or out to Worlds Fair.downtown2007 wrote:I agree, DD would have zero competition. I also wouldn't mind seeing a local donut place such as Strange Donuts opening a place downtown.
But I also like your local donut idea. My ideal would be a DD along Broadway, 4th or Chestnut and then something like Strange along Washington Ave.
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What about the old People's National bank caddy corner from Culinaria?
I also think you at least have a different perception of price with DD versus Starbucks. In other words, a twice or three trips a week become a daily stop for coffee drinkers. Second, DD and Starbucks have distinct coffee taste. As already noted, slightly different market in terms of taste as well as donuts. Starbucks has done well in some respects by not competing head on with the donut and bagel crowd.
True. Starbucks went higher end in buying and integrating San Francisco's La Boulange Cafe & Bakery: http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/ ... 608539.phpdredger wrote:I also think you at least have a different perception of price with DD versus Starbucks. In other words, a twice or three trips a week become a daily stop for coffee drinkers. Second, DD and Starbucks have distinct coffee taste. As already noted, slightly different market in terms of taste as well as donuts. Starbucks has done well in some respects by not competing head on with the donut and bagel crowd.
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OK, while we are talking donuts, what's up with Pharaoh's Donuts. I see the sign, smell the donuts, but there is no store and no donuts. Is this a cruel prank? It always smells like donuts, not just once in a while.
I asked the same question on a dedicated thread and no one responded. I figured someone would know something. This is a mystery.
I asked the same question on a dedicated thread and no one responded. I figured someone would know something. This is a mystery.
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I have also been waiting for that place to open.
Everyone should go to Chili Mac's Diner, by the way. Best burritos an American restaurant can make. It would be tight if they opened another location in Midtown Alley or something.
Everyone should go to Chili Mac's Diner, by the way. Best burritos an American restaurant can make. It would be tight if they opened another location in Midtown Alley or something.
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I love Chili Mac's diner. A great old school diner. Just wish it was open later.
Sorry, should have been more specific in my question. Was referring to the corporate store on Olive not the license agreement stores at the hotels.
I agree DD is cheaper and has a following but nobody has a following like Starbucks and the downtown location (corporate) does nothing to suggest a DD would be successful downtown.
I agree DD is cheaper and has a following but nobody has a following like Starbucks and the downtown location (corporate) does nothing to suggest a DD would be successful downtown.
^Kbshapiro, Have you even been to the East Coast? To state that Starbucks has a following and DD doesn't is beyond my comprehension. According to wikepedia, DD at 15,000 stores versus Starbucks at 20,000 stores. That is like stating individual Wendy's, Hardees, Burger King will never be successful because they don't have a following like McDonalds.
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More fast food Downtown might not hurt. I don't eat at those places much, but most people sure do. Hardee's is the only one in the heart of Downtown right now. Throw some of those others in there and that would be groovy.
Dredger - Yes, I've been to the east coast and thanks for putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say DD didn't have a following, I just said Starbucks has a larger one. Average store volume at Starbucks is about $1.1 mil (of which is mostly coffee). DD is in the mid $800k area. Starbucks is building more stores and has more stores. Starbucks in St Louis - don't have time to count them. DD has a 11.
Still don't believe my statement to be accurate (that Starbucks has a larger volume), go compare the Starbucks in Rock Hill to the Dunkin Donuts in Rock Hill at 8am in the morning and get back to me.
Sure, maybe in Boston or where ever, DD has a large store count and following compared to Starbucks, but how that applies to the success of a downtown St Louis sub-market, I have no idea.
I didn't say DD didn't have a following, I just said Starbucks has a larger one. Average store volume at Starbucks is about $1.1 mil (of which is mostly coffee). DD is in the mid $800k area. Starbucks is building more stores and has more stores. Starbucks in St Louis - don't have time to count them. DD has a 11.
Still don't believe my statement to be accurate (that Starbucks has a larger volume), go compare the Starbucks in Rock Hill to the Dunkin Donuts in Rock Hill at 8am in the morning and get back to me.
Sure, maybe in Boston or where ever, DD has a large store count and following compared to Starbucks, but how that applies to the success of a downtown St Louis sub-market, I have no idea.
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^Well if there are 4 Starbuck's downtown then by virtue of relative market there should be about 3 Dunkin Donuts. Don't really think that's true since as you state the Starbuck's are not doing the business they'd normally expect (maybe 4 is too many for the current market but hopefully they are staging locations to capture the market as downtown grows) but I would think 1 Dunkin Donuts would potentially be successful.
3 of those Starbucks are hotel supported. They're aimed at the guests first and downtown workers/residents second.STLEnginerd wrote:^Well if there are 4 Starbuck's downtown then by virtue of relative market there should be about 3 Dunkin Donuts. Don't really think that's true since as you state the Starbuck's are not doing the business they'd normally expect (maybe 4 is too many for the current market but hopefully they are staging locations to capture the market as downtown grows) but I would think 1 Dunkin Donuts would potentially be successful.
I still think one DD could be supported downtown; but it seems others don't think we can handle/support even that.
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KB, are you saying that the Olive Starbucks is not profitable? They have had several rounds of closures, so I don't think they'd have hesitated to close it down if it was not successful enough. Personally, I think neither the location nor spot/layout is ideal for a downtown Starbucks, but they've been around for over a decade.
Anyway, its longevity seems to support the argument that it is doing fine and suggest that downtown is at least on the verge of supporting a national brand known for good coffee/donuts at a reasonable price. Not sure of their margins and revenue needs, but hopefully they are looking!
Anyway, its longevity seems to support the argument that it is doing fine and suggest that downtown is at least on the verge of supporting a national brand known for good coffee/donuts at a reasonable price. Not sure of their margins and revenue needs, but hopefully they are looking!
No, said nothing about profitability of the store (something only Starbucks will ever know). I just said the store does "fair" in comparison to their other stores in St Louis metro. I bet you the store is profitable, that company is very profitable.
Guys, there is only 1 Starbucks in downtown St Louis. The other 3 are operated by the hotel on a licensing agreement and aren't full service Starbucks.
Earlier, I just asked a question as a result of people making statements that a DD would be wildly/very successful in this space or this space or that space, etc. I'm just curious why people believe a Dunkin Donuts downtown will do great, when the Starbucks does fair/average?
Guys, there is only 1 Starbucks in downtown St Louis. The other 3 are operated by the hotel on a licensing agreement and aren't full service Starbucks.
Earlier, I just asked a question as a result of people making statements that a DD would be wildly/very successful in this space or this space or that space, etc. I'm just curious why people believe a Dunkin Donuts downtown will do great, when the Starbucks does fair/average?
KB, thanks for correcting me earlier. I think you answered in part with a recent response on why I think a DD will work downtown. Beyond the difference in coffee/donut their has to be a significant difference in franchise cost between the two. You noted typical store revenues of $1.1 million vs. $800k between stores, assuming stand alone and not the hotel lobby variety. However, I would love to see the break out in cost - franchise fees, build out standards, down to the cost of coffee and supplies.
In other words, I think DD would generate enough revenue while not having to generate as much as Starbucks to cover its lease/build out & franchise/operational cost downtown. I'm assuming in part that a DD would need less foot traffic based on cost difference. At same time, DD would have enough name brand recognition and support to sustain itself at a decent traffic location where as a small mom and pop donut stand truly needs a low cost outlet/lease with the owner spending a lot of hard working hours to stay viable.
In other words, I think DD would generate enough revenue while not having to generate as much as Starbucks to cover its lease/build out & franchise/operational cost downtown. I'm assuming in part that a DD would need less foot traffic based on cost difference. At same time, DD would have enough name brand recognition and support to sustain itself at a decent traffic location where as a small mom and pop donut stand truly needs a low cost outlet/lease with the owner spending a lot of hard working hours to stay viable.
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thanks, KB.kbshapiro wrote:No, said nothing about profitability of the store (something only Starbucks will ever know). I just said the store does "fair" in comparison to their other stores in St Louis metro. I bet you the store is profitable, that company is very profitable.
Guys, there is only 1 Starbucks in downtown St Louis. The other 3 are operated by the hotel on a licensing agreement and aren't full service Starbucks.
Earlier, I just asked a question as a result of people making statements that a DD would be wildly/very successful in this space or this space or that space, etc. I'm just curious why people believe a Dunkin Donuts downtown will do great, when the Starbucks does fair/average?
I don't know whether DD would be wildly successful or not, but I do believe that it is one of the most logical franchises to come next to downtown. With a good location, my bet is it would be successful. Anyway, one of the franchise owners -- the one who owns the Kirkwood location and a few others -- is a Wash U law grad and is aiming for 10 to 12 stores.
http://www.stldunkindonuts.com/
It would be interesting to know if he's looking. Or if he's been approached. Is there a drive-thru available at Union Pacific?
Starbucks doesn't franchise so hard to say exactly but agree the expense of opening a DD is probably less than a Starbucks so the race to profitability is probably quicker.
I'd say the first floor of Met Square or maybe something on Olive (such as the Quiznos space) would make the most sense for DD. The last space on Wash Ave at the Mercantile Exchange would be interesting also.
Not a fan of Park Pacific. Too far west to get the office and tourist traffic and kind of sits there on its own (except maybe the buildings along Tucker like SLU law).
I'd say the first floor of Met Square or maybe something on Olive (such as the Quiznos space) would make the most sense for DD. The last space on Wash Ave at the Mercantile Exchange would be interesting also.
Not a fan of Park Pacific. Too far west to get the office and tourist traffic and kind of sits there on its own (except maybe the buildings along Tucker like SLU law).
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^ I agree east is better, but the possibility of a drive-thru at the PP is intriguing. If drive-thru would be crucial for a DD or other franchise, perhaps we may see some new construction on Tucker by across from the P-D. Not an ideal land use for sure, but it will be interesting to see what becomes of Tucker now that it will be a major gateway to downtown.
I also wonder how much of a barrier Tucker is for pedestrian traffic; i.e. whether Downtowners patronize Downtown West frequently and vice versa.
I also wonder how much of a barrier Tucker is for pedestrian traffic; i.e. whether Downtowners patronize Downtown West frequently and vice versa.
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We can daydream about new retailers, but until downtown lands more employers/jobs - lots of them - it's going to be real hard to attract any national chains.