Report to the Community January 26 Comments

gary kreie · PostJan 27, 2011#12011-01-27T02:53+00:00

Interesting how much the plans have changed.
http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org/

I like the new emphasis on the Gateway Mall, the Old Courthouse, and drawing people to the Arch from the West. Many things were scaled back, and some new things were added, like the gondolas. The cost is now set at over 500 million. The East side plans focus more on the existing fountain and building an encircling structure around the edge of it. The river gauges appear to be gone. The beer garden/skating rink on the South end is gone. I guess visitors will have to wait for a festival on the wharf if they want to have a beer or wine while watching barges travel down the river.

They are working with local groups and business including Lacledes Landing and Great Rivers Greenway, to keep the good things going, like bike trails. They are trying to create a ring that includes the East side, Michael said he envisioned a person taking their bike on the gondola to the East side and riding back across Eads Bridge eventually.

In general, it looks like a more realistic but still quite ambitious plan that will certainly transform the area if it can all done. It is still evolving.

DaronDierkes · PostJan 27, 2011#22011-01-27T02:58+00:00

Is the beer garden gone? It sounded like he said it would be in Kienar Plaza.

quincunx · PostJan 27, 2011#32011-01-27T03:08+00:00

I like getting rid of the parking garage so we can see the Eads Bridge, but there was some ominous talk of a new garage that irked me. Where might that go? On the surface lots on the other side of Eads?

the central scrutinizer · PostJan 27, 2011#42011-01-27T03:15+00:00

DaronDierkes wrote:Is the beer garden gone? It sounded like he said it would be in Kienar Plaza.

Probably a better place for it than isolated on the south end of the grounds.

DaronDierkes · PostJan 27, 2011#52011-01-27T03:27+00:00

quincunx wrote:I like getting rid of the parking garage so we can see the Eads Bridge, but there was some ominous talk of a new garage that irked me. Where might that go? On the surface lots on the other side of Eads?

Offering no on-site parking and nixing the underground stuff means they can use their budget for other things. Although there is some kind of surface parking lot on the Illinois side of their gondola route. The lot by the cathdral will stay, but I'm sure the archdiocese will remain protective of it. Remote ticketing and off-site parking is kind of bold for this town.

quincunx · PostJan 27, 2011#62011-01-27T03:29+00:00

There wasn't any talk of noise reduction. Is is just hopeless? I wouldn't want to have a beer while being assaulted by interstate traffic noise.

pat · PostJan 27, 2011#72011-01-27T03:35+00:00

They proposed putting a restaurant type place in Kiener Plaza where you would also be able to get drinks, but it would also be geared towards family (also talked about a merry-go-round). They used a place in New York called Shake Shack as an example.

Overall, I thought their design was very good. Everything they have creates a wonderful park and flows together. They connect the mall to the Arch and Arch to the East Side well. Everything they propose is good.

I only had two problems with it.

1. We need more for locals. The design really seems to be geared to tourists (which it does this well), people from way out in the county and out of town and not to St. Louisans. I think that its good to get visitors here and to stay longer. But I don't think it does a lot for people who live here. This is still only a park that I would go to once a year or so (fourth of July, maybe exhibits at the museum). There's nothing for me to do there outside of hanging out. I can only see the arch so many times.

2. They should do something with Eads bridge. Specifically a bike/walking path connected to the Mississippi River trail. This would be something residents in downtown could use. It would get them on the arch grounds on a regular basis. Similar to the running path in Forest Park. Besides, I don't think any biker is really going to take the time to ride a gondola when they could ride across the Eads in traffic just as easily.

Hopefully they continue to improve it and they manage to get funding.

DaronDierkes · PostJan 27, 2011#82011-01-27T03:48+00:00

pat wrote: 1. We need more for locals. The design really seems to be geared to tourists (which it does this well), people from way out in the county and out of town and not to St. Louisans. I think that its good to get visitors here and to stay longer. But I don't think it does a lot for people who live here. This is still only a park that I would go to once a year or so (fourth of July, maybe exhibits at the museum). There's nothing for me to do there outside of hanging out. I can only see the arch so many times.

I think there should be a lot of money set aside for programming in the future, so expect big events like Fair St. Louis to be very different. There should also be a lot of outdoor movies and stuff. Don't lose heart yet local.

pat wrote:2. They should do something with Eads bridge. Specifically a bike/walking path connected to the Mississippi River trail. This would be something residents in downtown could use. It would get them on the arch grounds on a regular basis. Similar to the running path in Forest Park. Besides, I don't think any biker is really going to take the time to ride a gondola when they could ride across the Eads in traffic just as easily.

It looked from the images like they were converting the eastern side of Memorial Drive into a bike path and Sullivan Drive as well. He said he wanted to make a full lane on Eads for bikes only... but you're right, he should take half the bridge. I think we'll see that happen in the future with or without the competition.

9ine Runner · PostJan 27, 2011#92011-01-27T03:52+00:00

I'm sure this is posted somewhere but have they said how much the lid would cost?

lukethedrifter · PostJan 27, 2011#102011-01-27T04:02+00:00

pat wrote: They used a place in New York called Shake Shack as an example.

Now we know that they read Urbanstl.

http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... ck#p176850

gary kreie · PostJan 27, 2011#112011-01-27T04:30+00:00

The Post-Dispatch write-up on the presentaion:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 78c22.html

DaronDierkes · PostJan 27, 2011#122011-01-27T04:37+00:00

lukethedrifter wrote:
pat wrote: They used a place in New York called Shake Shack as an example.

Now we know that they read Urbanstl.

http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... ck#p176850

Make it a Ted Drewes! http://tinyurl.com/4nec7z2

the central scrutinizer · PostJan 27, 2011#132011-01-27T04:49+00:00

pat wrote:They used a place in New York called Shake Shack as an example.

Part of St Louis native Danny Meyer's restaurant empire.

Been to NYC a million times, but never have made it there. But the locals seem to love it.

PostJan 27, 2011#142011-01-27T04:51+00:00

DaronDierkes wrote:
lukethedrifter wrote:
pat wrote: They used a place in New York called Shake Shack as an example.

Now we know that they read Urbanstl.

http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... ck#p176850
Make it a Ted Drewes! http://tinyurl.com/4nec7z2

Ted Drewes would likely turn it down, just like he has every other offer to expand.

iceburg · PostJan 27, 2011#152011-01-27T04:54+00:00

It wasn't clear to me whether they plan to remove Washington east of I-70. Did anyone catch that? On the one hand, they mentioned bringing the park to Eads Bridge/the Landing, but they also plan to reconfigure the confusing intersection at 4th and Washington.

DaronDierkes · PostJan 27, 2011#162011-01-27T05:00+00:00

Yes, removed completely. The reconfiguration is that Wash Ave would go right onto Eads Bridge. It makes it 4-way instead of 5-way while doing nothing about the massive interstate that runs through the middle of it.

zun1026 · PostJan 27, 2011#172011-01-27T05:33+00:00

Am I the only one who does not like the closing of Memorial Drive?

Also, with the beer garden gone, what is there to attract locals beyond the initial years after the completion?

I do like the increased emphasis on connection the courthouse and gateway mall.

Anyone get pictures tonight?

PostJan 27, 2011#182011-01-27T05:34+00:00

DaronDierkes wrote:Yes, removed completely. The reconfiguration is that Wash Ave would go right onto Eads Bridge. It makes it 4-way instead of 5-way while doing nothing about the massive interstate that runs through the middle of it.

I am sure Landing businesses will love that.

PostJan 27, 2011#192011-01-27T06:25+00:00

gary kreie wrote:Interesting how much the plans have changed.
http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org/

I like the new emphasis on the Gateway Mall, the Old Courthouse, and drawing people to the Arch from the West. Many things were scaled back, and some new things were added, like the gondolas. The cost is now set at over 500 million. The East side plans focus more on the existing fountain and building an encircling structure around the edge of it. The river gauges appear to be gone. The beer garden/skating rink on the South end is gone. I guess visitors will have to wait for a festival on the wharf if they want to have a beer or wine while watching barges travel down the river.

They are working with local groups and business including Lacledes Landing and Great Rivers Greenway, to keep the good things going, like bike trails. They are trying to create a ring that includes the East side, Michael said he envisioned a person taking their bike on the gondola to the East side and riding back across Eads Bridge eventually.

In general, it looks like a more realistic but still quite ambitious plan that will certainly transform the area if it can all done. It is still evolving.

This is the new presentation....

http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org ... _26_11.pdf

9ine Runner · PostJan 27, 2011#202011-01-27T06:34+00:00

I cannot believe this is going to cost 578 million dollars and I-70 is still going to be there. gondolas and a carousel.

zun1026 · PostJan 27, 2011#212011-01-27T06:42+00:00

arch_genesis wrote:I cannot believe this is going to cost 578 million dollars and I-70 is still going to be there. gondolas and a carousel.

I honestly think the Gondola money could be put to better use. Or just cut that chunk out of the budget.

I would rather have Memorial Drive and gut I-70.

Also, the insistence of Tulip Poplars everywhere seems a bad idea. Just wait till a bad storm come and takes a bunch of them down. They are known to be weak wooded. Also, what happens if insects or disease hit? But hey, it won't fit with the motif to diversify the tree selection.

RobbyD · PostJan 27, 2011#222011-01-27T06:57+00:00

zun1026 wrote:
gary kreie wrote:Interesting how much the plans have changed.
http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org/

I like the new emphasis on the Gateway Mall, the Old Courthouse, and drawing people to the Arch from the West. Many things were scaled back, and some new things were added, like the gondolas. The cost is now set at over 500 million. The East side plans focus more on the existing fountain and building an encircling structure around the edge of it. The river gauges appear to be gone. The beer garden/skating rink on the South end is gone. I guess visitors will have to wait for a festival on the wharf if they want to have a beer or wine while watching barges travel down the river.

They are working with local groups and business including Lacledes Landing and Great Rivers Greenway, to keep the good things going, like bike trails. They are trying to create a ring that includes the East side, Michael said he envisioned a person taking their bike on the gondola to the East side and riding back across Eads Bridge eventually.

In general, it looks like a more realistic but still quite ambitious plan that will certainly transform the area if it can all done. It is still evolving.
This is the new presentation....

http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org ... _26_11.pdf

Ah, you rock...Good feeling on teh first impression...I really like the general idea of ticket kiosks within downtown near existing parking...If thats true, that's a great move IMO...especially when the pedestrian connection to the Arch Grounds from downtown are inviting and easy...

A downtown skating rink (even Atlanta has one downtown) should go down by Aloe Plaza in front of Union Statio anyways...Would help bookend the Gateway Mall, bring attention to the spectacular fountain, and help property values of Downtown West owners! =p

zun1026 · PostJan 27, 2011#232011-01-27T07:06+00:00

RobbyD wrote:
zun1026 wrote:
gary kreie wrote:Interesting how much the plans have changed.
http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org/

I like the new emphasis on the Gateway Mall, the Old Courthouse, and drawing people to the Arch from the West. Many things were scaled back, and some new things were added, like the gondolas. The cost is now set at over 500 million. The East side plans focus more on the existing fountain and building an encircling structure around the edge of it. The river gauges appear to be gone. The beer garden/skating rink on the South end is gone. I guess visitors will have to wait for a festival on the wharf if they want to have a beer or wine while watching barges travel down the river.

They are working with local groups and business including Lacledes Landing and Great Rivers Greenway, to keep the good things going, like bike trails. They are trying to create a ring that includes the East side, Michael said he envisioned a person taking their bike on the gondola to the East side and riding back across Eads Bridge eventually.

In general, it looks like a more realistic but still quite ambitious plan that will certainly transform the area if it can all done. It is still evolving.
This is the new presentation....

http://www.cityarchrivercompetition.org ... _26_11.pdf
Ah, you rock...Good feeling on teh first impression...I really like the general idea of ticket kiosks within downtown near existing parking...If thats true, that's a great move IMO...especially when the pedestrian connection to the Arch Grounds from downtown are inviting and easy...

A downtown skating rink (even Atlanta has one downtown) should go down by Aloe Plaza in front of Union Statio anyways...Would help bookend the Gateway Mall, bring attention to the spectacular fountain, and help property values of Downtown West owners! =p

I too like the parking kiosk idea. It certainly could be a good thing, but I would like to see specifics drawn up before I give my full approval...not that my approval really matters.

As for the skating rink (not sure if you realize this...you probably do, but...) the Gateway Mall revitalization plans call for a rink in the fountain area infront of Union Station.

dredger · PostJan 27, 2011#242011-01-27T07:24+00:00

I do feel they addressed some big issues up front in the design and certainly has gotten better from what they originally proposed.

1) A new main entrance and expanded museum from the West would be a huge improvement to accessing the Arch and they should be given some credit in how they tied it into Gateway Mall. Just as important, why put beer garden and ice rink underneath Poplar Street Bridge when you got an underused plaza begging for attention next to the Old Courthouse.

2) Removing the north parking garage!! The problem of course is do you truly get good access to Laclede's Landing without Wash Ave extending to the riverfront? I don't think the proposed Wash Ave configuration is all that bad by the way they configured/presented the idea and sure their will be some support for direct on/off access to I-70 from Wash Ave.

As far at the tram ride, can wait in my mind even though its a much better idea then having a ferry. However, to put it bluntly, it is coming from a biased opinion that trying to expand the park into the East side bank does little for ESTL nor the Arch Grounds themselves. In fact, I think it would be more interesting if their was more industrial activity, barges happening.

My final thoughts, the plan still does leave open the option of downgrading I-70 to a blvd after coming out of the trench westbound. It might not be as good, but any stadium/bottle work district plans could incorporate a new blvd from Wash Ave to the new Mississippi Bridge and thus a second chance at putting back some of the north side street grid as one should note, the Arch itself was built by destroying the street grid and will remain that way as long as it stands. However, north of Wash Ave is all new story that can be rewritten.

Alex Ihnen · PostJan 27, 2011#252011-01-27T07:35+00:00

^ Wash Ave east of I-70 is gone.

Here's the urbanSTL write-up with images and presentation (though you guys are really covered it well!): http://urbanstl.com/downtown/578m-micha ... s-specific