^ Right. And since we are still in the period of Modernism, what is Contemporary IS modern. There is no need to draw a distinction.
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While on the topic of new construction one should keep in mind that we could see development from 3 distinct vertical markets: Class A ffice space, condos/apartments, and hotels. In this case, it appears McGowan is considering all three.
The more I think about this, the more I scream BULL sh*t! We all know enough about finacing developments to know you don't get these babies finaced without significant presales and LOI from office tenants and hotel management. Not buying it. However, I supposse the financing could have been close and contingent on what I listed above. Guess we'll never know.
McGowan said the building would combine offices, residences and a hotel. Financing seemed close about 18 months ago but then the recession hit and money pools evaporated, said McGowan,
The more I think about this, the more I scream BULL sh*t! We all know enough about finacing developments to know you don't get these babies finaced without significant presales and LOI from office tenants and hotel management. Not buying it. However, I supposse the financing could have been close and contingent on what I listed above. Guess we'll never know.
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^I would think the same Moorlander, but with the way things were going before the last recession, there may indeed have been financiers out there crazy enough to take such a speculative risk in the hopes of tremendous profits. Higher risk=higher reward right?
However, my gut leans the opposite way and would side with you about the supposed availability of financing.
However, my gut leans the opposite way and would side with you about the supposed availability of financing.
KMOV interviewed Kevin McGowan last night about his plans to build a 1000' tower. Pretty decent piece. Not really any new information, although they did show a couple renderings and it looks the same as those that have been posted on here before. Damn ugly IMO, and certainly I would hope a redesign would occur before getting built.
KMOV also said they had an extra-video on their website with Kevin. He talks about Chouteau pond and the urban garden being built along Market. What greatly concerns me, is that his plan is for the Chouteau Pond to mimic a suburban office park. What! He talks about how downtown is seperated from south city by these railroad lines. How on earth is plopping a suburban office park with a man-made lake going to help this connection?
Clearly I hope the park would not be built in this manner but I certainly am concerned by how Mr. McGowan projects this thing to be built. Here is a link to the extra footage.
http://www.kmov.com/video/localnews-ind ... vid=358283
KMOV also said they had an extra-video on their website with Kevin. He talks about Chouteau pond and the urban garden being built along Market. What greatly concerns me, is that his plan is for the Chouteau Pond to mimic a suburban office park. What! He talks about how downtown is seperated from south city by these railroad lines. How on earth is plopping a suburban office park with a man-made lake going to help this connection?
Clearly I hope the park would not be built in this manner but I certainly am concerned by how Mr. McGowan projects this thing to be built. Here is a link to the extra footage.
http://www.kmov.com/video/localnews-ind ... vid=358283
I wouldn't read too much into the suburban office park statement. Now if the offices are surrounded by surface parking, it will be a suburban office park.
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^ I think he chose some unfortunately words, but the site won't really be suburban (in the worst case) unless the greenspaces are inaccessible to the public - pocket plazas etc. etc. I don't think is his vision. Overall, it's wonderful that Kevin's talking about this.
He does time and time again refer to it as an "urban park" and reiterates that not a single building would need to be torn down - nice point.
He does time and time again refer to it as an "urban park" and reiterates that not a single building would need to be torn down - nice point.
So would the plan be to remove the train tracks? Where would they go instead?
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As I've understood it, a large number of the tracks would be removed, but some would remain and trains would continue to run. Obviously Metrolink would still run through the area. Much of the land doesn't have tracks currently.
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While the pond would be great, I would be totally happy with simply re-introducing the street grid and letting the area build back up on its own.
MattnSTL wrote:I wouldn't read too much into the suburban office park statement. Now if the offices are surrounded by surface parking, it will be a suburban office park.
The city has been catering to suburban people for the last 50 years to try and entice them into the city. This has brought us decreased density, rediculous amounts of parking lots and garages, destroyed street grids, suburban-style failures (STL Centre, etc...). Only recently has the city decided to start switching from a suburban back to an urban mindset. This has brought us Washington Ave. and many neighborhood revivals.
I have no interest in a pond with suburban-style lowrise office buildings next to ample parking. Perhaps a pond can still be put in - but let's incorporate it with restoring the street grid and seemlessly connecting it to the grid south of there.
That's not what I was saying. I've spent five years and enough money to buy a damn nice house learning urban planning and development. I would not advocate for some low rise buildings around a lake. I was saying I think that he meant was that you can have an office looking over a lake if you would like that. I lake that happens to not be in a campus and has useful amenities like a marina and restaurants. Maybe some well designed open space. As far as I know,McGowan is not one of the developers anyway. Although, I guess he could build around it just as anyone else could.
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metzgda wrote:KMOV interviewed Kevin McGowan last night about his plans to build a 1000' tower. Pretty decent piece. Not really any new information, although they did show a couple renderings and it looks the same as those that have been posted on here before. Damn ugly IMO, and certainly I would hope a redesign would occur before getting built.
KMOV also said they had an extra-video on their website with Kevin. He talks about Chouteau pond and the urban garden being built along Market. What greatly concerns me, is that his plan is for the Chouteau Pond to mimic a suburban office park. What! He talks about how downtown is seperated from south city by these railroad lines. How on earth is plopping a suburban office park with a man-made lake going to help this connection?
Clearly I hope the park would not be built in this manner but I certainly am concerned by how Mr. McGowan projects this thing to be built. Here is a link to the extra footage.
http://www.kmov.com/video/localnews-ind ... vid=358283
Is there a link to the story? or just the Extra?
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Suburban office park in downtown? That's what we are selling these days? Sounds like a great idea and that should make St. Louis very unique. 
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I think you guys are overplaying what he said a bit. I took it to be more of a "you can get the *feel* of a suburban office park in the urban downtown StL setting," giving (aparently retarded) company executives who locate in suburban StL so they can have "ponds and ducks" no reason to no longer locate in downtown StL...
WHERE THE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE WHOLE ***** TIME!
Edit: Why in the hell am I not studying for finals right now?
Edit #2:
Dear Kevin McGowan,
It's seems to me as though there was a golden opportunity for you to realize your vision within the past year, as letters of intent from Centene for 300,000ish sqft of office space, 275,000 sq ft from Apex Oil, and 300,000 - 750,000 ish (pure guestimate) sq ft from Montgomery bank were sitting on the table for someone with a vision such as yours to wrap up into a fantastic package to present to financiers to build your dream tower. Centene was willing to move downtown, and with some charisma and selling ability the other two may have been convinced to move downtown if this were truly to be a "signature tower." I know that this is vastly oversimplifying the issue, but if you really wanted it...
Oh how I wish I was in an executive position with Hines development (who is doing absolutely fantastic work as of late (see Main Place in Houston))with my StL background and love to sell them on this idea two years ago. Wrong time, wrong place.
(Have you considered a joint venture with a large development company such as them?)
Sorry. Finished. (Dismounts High Horse)
WHERE THE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE WHOLE ***** TIME!
Edit: Why in the hell am I not studying for finals right now?
Edit #2:
Dear Kevin McGowan,
It's seems to me as though there was a golden opportunity for you to realize your vision within the past year, as letters of intent from Centene for 300,000ish sqft of office space, 275,000 sq ft from Apex Oil, and 300,000 - 750,000 ish (pure guestimate) sq ft from Montgomery bank were sitting on the table for someone with a vision such as yours to wrap up into a fantastic package to present to financiers to build your dream tower. Centene was willing to move downtown, and with some charisma and selling ability the other two may have been convinced to move downtown if this were truly to be a "signature tower." I know that this is vastly oversimplifying the issue, but if you really wanted it...
Oh how I wish I was in an executive position with Hines development (who is doing absolutely fantastic work as of late (see Main Place in Houston))with my StL background and love to sell them on this idea two years ago. Wrong time, wrong place.
(Have you considered a joint venture with a large development company such as them?)
Sorry. Finished. (Dismounts High Horse)
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My takeaway from that clip is that the open space near the tracks could house anything, such as "a suburban office park" or a lake or damn near anything. His focus was on how large a track of developable land that is, NOT on wanting to build an office park there. You could build a small airport there theoretically, there's enough space. Being one of Downtownn's most successful developers, and one who doesn't want to tear down buildings, I'm sure he's focused on real & pragmatic urbanism, not "new urbanism".
I searched but couldn't find a link to the news broadcast featuring the proposed tower. For the Choteau Lake development, I'm sure he's more interested in building his signature building there than recreating Outer 40 from Town & Country.
As well, I really appreciated his comments on the need and opportunities in fully fixing the Downtown parks. Imagine making it a safe and well-maintained collection of parks that people would want to visit enough to even picnic there. Sure beats the weeds and homeless collections gathering there constantly.
Ready to see that tower move beyond the theoretical. Here's to the commercial real estate market surviving the next fiscal quarter.
I searched but couldn't find a link to the news broadcast featuring the proposed tower. For the Choteau Lake development, I'm sure he's more interested in building his signature building there than recreating Outer 40 from Town & Country.
As well, I really appreciated his comments on the need and opportunities in fully fixing the Downtown parks. Imagine making it a safe and well-maintained collection of parks that people would want to visit enough to even picnic there. Sure beats the weeds and homeless collections gathering there constantly.
Ready to see that tower move beyond the theoretical. Here's to the commercial real estate market surviving the next fiscal quarter.
Moorlander wrote:metzgda wrote:KMOV interviewed Kevin McGowan last night about his plans to build a 1000' tower. Pretty decent piece. Not really any new information, although they did show a couple renderings and it looks the same as those that have been posted on here before. Damn ugly IMO, and certainly I would hope a redesign would occur before getting built.
KMOV also said they had an extra-video on their website with Kevin. He talks about Chouteau pond and the urban garden being built along Market. What greatly concerns me, is that his plan is for the Chouteau Pond to mimic a suburban office park. What! He talks about how downtown is seperated from south city by these railroad lines. How on earth is plopping a suburban office park with a man-made lake going to help this connection?
Clearly I hope the park would not be built in this manner but I certainly am concerned by how Mr. McGowan projects this thing to be built. Here is a link to the extra footage.
http://www.kmov.com/video/localnews-ind ... vid=358283
Is there a link to the story? or just the Extra?
Unfortunately it doesn't seem KMOV has a link to the original broadcast that talked only about the McGowan Tower. Essentially he echoed most of what people have already posted, saying that it will happen and that it's essential to change outsiders perceptions of STL. My feeling is still that changing outsiders perceptions will take a lot more than building a 1000' tower.
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metzgda wrote:
Unfortunately it doesn't seem KMOV has a link to the original broadcast that talked only about the McGowan Tower. Essentially he echoed most of what people have already posted, saying that it will happen and that it's essential to change outsiders perceptions of STL. My feeling is still that changing outsiders perceptions will take a lot more than building a 1000' tower.
Good points everyone. Would the construction of a supertall alter the national perception of St. Louis? I think that's hard to answer as a resident so... Would your perception of Cleveland or Detroit be positively altered by their building of a new supertall?
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Moorlander wrote:Would the construction of a supertall alter the national perception of St. Louis?
In my opinion, no. Louisville is planning on building a huge skyscraper, and I'm not sure that it will change anyone's opinion of that city.
I know a lot of you feel differently about McGowan's statements than I do. Here is an exact quote from the video that disturbs me where he talks about the Chouteau Pond development...
Now, perhaps he spoke wrong or perhaps this isn't what the true vision is. Still, the fact that he wants something appealing to suburban folks in the heart of our urban area disturbs me. When he says suburban office park, I immediately think of low-rise office buildings surrounding by parking lots and man-made lakes, with little to no connection to their surroundings. This is the exact crap our city leaders have promoted over the last decades and it has failed. This should be a dense development with mix uses of residential, office, and retail space. It should contain a street grid, and I'm sure you could still incorporate a lake meandering through it.
Give me an example of a suburban office park in STL that would fit well in this area, and perhaps I would change my attitude.
it is a large chunk of ground, that could be, turned into basically a suburban office park. There are not many cities in the country that have that option available to them. In other words, if there was a tenant that wanted some grass with ducks walking around on it. You have to go out into the county to get that, to get that setting, and we could offer that downtown here.
Now, perhaps he spoke wrong or perhaps this isn't what the true vision is. Still, the fact that he wants something appealing to suburban folks in the heart of our urban area disturbs me. When he says suburban office park, I immediately think of low-rise office buildings surrounding by parking lots and man-made lakes, with little to no connection to their surroundings. This is the exact crap our city leaders have promoted over the last decades and it has failed. This should be a dense development with mix uses of residential, office, and retail space. It should contain a street grid, and I'm sure you could still incorporate a lake meandering through it.
Give me an example of a suburban office park in STL that would fit well in this area, and perhaps I would change my attitude.
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And we already have a suburban office park west of the convention center, in the Cole Street/Convention Plaza area.
It's easy to forget about because it's probably the lamest part of downtown.
It's easy to forget about because it's probably the lamest part of downtown.
DeBaliviere wrote:And we already have a suburban office park west of the convention center, in the Cole Street/Convention Plaza area.
It's easy to forget about because it's probably the lamest part of downtown.
And don't forget the very suburban area around Jefferson and Market: Wells Fargo, FBI, MSD, plus the hotels.
Yeah, those suburban-style buildings sure do a great job of connecting downtown to the rest of the City and create a vibrant, exciting atmosphere.
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DeBaliviere wrote:Moorlander wrote:Would the construction of a supertall alter the national perception of St. Louis?
In my opinion, no. Louisville is planning on building a huge skyscraper, and I'm not sure that it will change anyone's opinion of that city.
I'll actually challenge that a little. I think it does affect perceptions quite a bit.
Speaking of Louisville, the University of Louisville and I were talking about a faculty position I guess about a year and a half ago now (obviously didn't happen).
Anyway, I was like ... Louisville ... blah. The horse race would be cool, but that's one weekend a year ...
But, then I found out about Museum Plaza (it was a selling point told to me by their other faculty members) -- and it really opened my eyes. It was not that Museum Plaza was that awesome or that I was going to live there, but it just made me take a second look and challenge my initial perception. Once I took a second look, I actually found a lot of things I liked about Louisville and (had the money been right) I would have moved there.
Now, it turns out Museum Plaza isn't happening anyway, but even the prospect of a supertall made me take a second look. I even sent that Museum Plaza link to a few of my friends to say ... hey, look, Louisville is sort of interesting.
All I can report is that it DID have a substantial impact on my perception of Louisville. Now, maybe I am not the normal case, but I think it would substantially help St. Louis' perception by outsiders to have a really tall shiny new building. It is a good way to get rid of that initial ... isn't Saint Louis a lot like Detroit? perception.
^ It also says something about the will of Louisville people, that something of such vision would be passed and developed.
I fear that anything that takes substantial vision to push developmental boundaries would be met with pure criticism here by the flush of naysayers.
Great job Louisville! So impressed.
I fear that anything that takes substantial vision to push developmental boundaries would be met with pure criticism here by the flush of naysayers.
Great job Louisville! So impressed.
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Museum plaza isn't being built and was never going to be a supertall. I believe it was just over 700 ft.
I think that having a brand new supertall downtown wouldn't necessarily change outsiders views of stl as much as it would drastically change st. Louisan's views of downtown. As they in turn consider downtown more exciting, they will come in larger #'s, more will be built, and it will become a self-fullfilling prophecy. It is at this point that other's views will begin to change.
I'm not sure cleveland or detroit have the momentum building as we in do in downtown stl to allow a tower such as this to be the tipping factor we all hope it to be.
I think that having a brand new supertall downtown wouldn't necessarily change outsiders views of stl as much as it would drastically change st. Louisan's views of downtown. As they in turn consider downtown more exciting, they will come in larger #'s, more will be built, and it will become a self-fullfilling prophecy. It is at this point that other's views will begin to change.
I'm not sure cleveland or detroit have the momentum building as we in do in downtown stl to allow a tower such as this to be the tipping factor we all hope it to be.