I see. A broad coalition of ten individuals among thousands in North St. Louis. And how many are African American? Pretty representative, I'm sure.
Perhaps they could have taken the time to expand on why they're asking government officials to reject TIF financing and community block grant funding for a project that would improve crumbling infrastructure, mass transportation, and bring industry/jobs to an area depressed for the past 60 years.
A small, fringe group of folks opposing investment in a historically African American area. I won't make the claim, but isn't this almost patently racist? Whatever credibility they had... Erased?
goat314 wrote:A group of 10 Northside residents are asking the city to reject the TIF and then asking that any future development has to guarantee community "benefits".
I'd like to find out more specifics about this. It seems to me that if McKee is to succeed he must include the community and keep current northside residents in place as opposed to shifting them to another area in the region. If you look at other urban successes (Boston neighborhoods, South Bronx, etc...) you'll see it was largely driven from community groups. With his plan in place and active involvement and assurances for current residents, this project can succeed.
innov8ion wrote:I see. A broad coalition of ten individuals among thousands in North St. Louis. And how many are African American? Pretty representative, I'm sure.
Perhaps they could have taken the time to expand on why they're asking government officials to reject TIF financing and community block grant funding for a project that would improve crumbling infrastructure, mass transportation, and bring industry/jobs to an area depressed for the past 60 years.
A small, fringe group of folks opposing investment in a historically African American area. I won't make the claim, but isn't this almost patently racist? Whatever credibility they had... Erased?
Have you read the CBA? Do you know the signatories individually? Know their motives? Know their blocks and houses? This is serious business, just like McKee's vision. Anyone invested in the future of north city -- no matter what they think of McKee's vision -- would have a hard time taking any aspect of the public debate lightly or playing the race card callously. Please.
goat314 wrote:A group of 10 Northside residents are asking the city to reject the TIF and then asking that any future development has to guarantee community "benefits".
^^ If it's serious business, then why did they neglect to explain their position in the letter? They just said, "Say no to public financing." If they would like to be taken seriously, wouldn't it benefit them to start acting in good faith, be thorough and professional? And again, how many of those ten residents are African American?
Perhaps there are others that could better represent the interests of North St. Louisans. People with open minds, less polarizing, and that better represent the demographic of the neighborhood. You know, reasonable people that wouldn't fight public financing of infrastructure improvements in a crumbling environment.
St. Louisans elected Barack Obama as our President. A few angry white persons will not prevent equitable investment in depressed minority areas. Nothing can stand in the way of the power of thousands of voices calling for change. Yes we can.
We will remember that there is something happening in St. Louis.
That we are not as divided as our politics suggests;
That we are one people;
We are one city;
And together, we will begin the next great chapter in St. Louis's story with three words that will ring from ward to ward;
innov8ion wrote:^^ If it's serious business, then why did they neglect to explain their position in the letter? They just said, "Say no to public financing." If they would like to be taken seriously, wouldn't it benefit them to start acting in good faith, be thorough and professional?
Perhaps there are others that could better represent the interests of North St. Louisans. People with open minds, less polarizing, and that better represent the demographic of the neighborhood. You know, reasonable people that wouldn't fight public financing of infrastructure improvements in a crumbling environment.
St. Louisans elected Barack Obama as our President. A few angry white persons will not prevent equitable investment in depressed minority areas. Nothing can stand in the way of the power of thousands of voices calling for change. Yes we can.
We will remember that there is something happening in St. Louis.
That we are not as divided as our politics suggests;
That we are one people;
We are one city;
And together, we will begin the next great chapter in St. Louis's story with three words that will ring from ward to ward;
Moorlander wrote:^^ don't forget scotto, he's likely to go postal. What kind of degenerate has an outburst like that in a church? Unexceptable.
Just watched it on YouTube myself. Yeah, totally pathetic. If there's one thing the Northside doesn't need, it's therapeutic radical gestures by self-appointed crusaders.
I'm not really going to defend myself per se, because I certainly could have made a more effective impression with a different tact, but I will say that the ACTIONS that McKee has taken are, without a doubt, far more radical and destructive than any verbal outburst. I'm just a regular St. Louisan, not a crusader, but I am awfully angry, and some people have expressed to me that they feel the same way. So I don't think this anger is really irrational or extreme - its the predictable outcome for some people when they witness injustice and criminality on this scale.
^You’re a heckler, yelling “You bunch of f*cking white people here!” (hey dips*it, news flash: you’re white), and doing so in a Church (one you obviously don’t attend), before being kicked out to applause. Sit down; your 15 seconds as a wannabe “crusader” are over. STFU and GBTW.
Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but ...
Focus: I’ve just read the last six pages of posts in one sitting, and now I really believe some of you people could give an aspirin a headache.
Prediction: By 2020. this will be the best section of the City of Saint Louis, with a diverse urban neighborhood to be held as the model for other cities to emulate, bringing international recognition and an incredible amount of business relocation & establishment, improving the standards of living for the most impoverished people in Saint Louis while adding modern innovation to rebuilt historical structures, the end result being so great that McKee will be heralded for decades as an innovator of the highest degree …
IF AND ONLY IF YOU NEARSIGHTED IDIOTS SHUT YOUR PIE HOLES, SIT DOWN, AND LET THE ADULTS DO THE WORK. OTHERWISE, YOU’RE GOING TO F THE WHOLE THING UP FROM YOUR GRANDSTANDING.
$6 Billion in the most impoverished part of the City, nay the whole Midwest, and this forum’s turned into passive-aggressive name calling, straw man arguments, de facto race-baiting, and so many political conspiracy theories that I’m surprised to not have heard “Cheney’s in a black helicopter over my house!” already.
Also, for those enlightened few so focused on race, seriously ask yourselves what the reaction would have been if McKee was black, and note the quandary. Personally, I could give a flying f*** about who has what skin pigment, as it’s only distracting, and I’m really waiting for Chinese business to come in above anyone else’s, save a long-term hope for some Arabian Emirate monies long-term.
And if it's now important to prequalify myself here: My education and work experience have dealt with the law, business, economic development, and policy, and my work experience includes political consultancy and strategic business planning. I know the subject matter well enough to hold myself out that I do. If you don’t, then don’t claim to.
So, where are we all on this? We are on the threshold of a truly transformative, long-term, comprehensive renaissance of the North Side, in one move investing double what’s been invested in Downtown StL over the last ten years. But, if there’s enough name-calling and innuendos supposed, this will fail, and you will have no one but yourselves to blame for the prolonged blight and socioeconomic stagnation of the community, and the further socioeconomic stratification of the area in contrast to the rest of Saint Louis.
I really need a smoke now. (light) (puff puff) Ahhh, sweet, sweet nicotine. Much better.
Are we done? I sure hope so. OK, let’s get back to work.
Gone Corporate wrote:^You’re a heckler, yelling “You bunch of f*cking white people here!” (hey dips*it, news flash: you’re white), and doing so in a Church (one you obviously don’t attend), before being kicked out to applause. Sit down; your 15 seconds as a wannabe “crusader” are over. STFU and GBTW.
Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but ...
Focus: I’ve just read the last six pages of posts in one sitting, and now I really believe some of you people could give an aspirin a headache.
Prediction: By 2020. this will be the best section of the City of Saint Louis, with a diverse urban neighborhood to be held as the model for other cities to emulate, bringing international recognition and an incredible amount of business relocation & establishment, improving the standards of living for the most impoverished people in Saint Louis while adding modern innovation to rebuilt historical structures, the end result being so great that McKee will be heralded for decades as an innovator of the highest degree …
IF AND ONLY IF YOU NEARSIGHTED IDIOTS SHUT YOUR PIE HOLES, SIT DOWN, AND LET THE ADULTS DO THE WORK. OTHERWISE, YOU’RE GOING TO F THE WHOLE THING UP FROM YOUR GRANDSTANDING.
$6 Billion in the most impoverished part of the City, nay the whole Midwest, and this forum’s turned into passive-aggressive name calling, straw man arguments, de facto race-baiting, and so many political conspiracy theories that I’m surprised to not have heard “Cheney’s in a black helicopter over my house!” already.
Also, for those enlightened few so focused on race, seriously ask yourselves what the reaction would have been if McKee was black, and note the quandary. Personally, I could give a flying f*** about who has what skin pigment, as it’s only distracting, and I’m really waiting for Chinese business to come in above anyone else’s, save a long-term hope for some Arabian Emirate monies long-term.
And if it's now important to prequalify myself here: My education and work experience have dealt with the law, business, economic development, and policy, and my work experience includes political consultancy and strategic business planning. I know the subject matter well enough to hold myself out that I do. If you don’t, then don’t claim to.
So, where are we all on this? We are on the threshold of a truly transformative, long-term, comprehensive renaissance of the North Side, in one move investing double what’s been invested in Downtown StL over the last ten years. But, if there’s enough name-calling and innuendos supposed, this will fail, and you will have no one but yourselves to blame for the prolonged blight and socioeconomic stagnation of the community, and the further socioeconomic stratification of the area in contrast to the rest of Saint Louis.
I really need a smoke now. (light) (puff puff) Ahhh, sweet, sweet nicotine. Much better.
Are we done? I sure hope so. OK, let’s get back to work.
^ Yeah and John has a HUGE pie hole - it's going to be a tough task! And I have ZERO predictive sense that this is going to be the "best" part of the city, maybe ever. Of course I can say that because "best" is subjective and I'll never admit you're right even if you are (which I doubt).
Anyway,
some people have expressed to me that they feel the same way. So I don't think this anger is really irrational or extreme
Yeah . . . that's how cults get started, "hey, I may think the moon is made of cheese and that all my bros should wear matching Nike's for when the comet comes to take us away, but look, there are a few people who agree with me!!! Nothing unusual here at all."
^^John, I wish I could, but I make it a rule not to argue with strangers on the interwebs.
On a side note, reading this made me laugh really hard for a good twenty seconds. It read like something a schoolkid would say.
"Make me!"
A serious thanks, because I needed that.
Now, back to b*tching over something you have no control over. Have fun with that.
EDIT: Recognize that you responded immediately after I called out "nearsighted idiots". If someone yells out in a crowded bar, "Hey a**hole!", would you turn around as if being called by name? Didn't think so, but you did here. Interesting.
Gone Corporate wrote:Now, back to b*tching over something you have no control over. Have fun with that.
Ah, but any of us who is a city resident does have control via the legislation that McEagle seeks. I'm not cynical enough to believe that the legislation will be completely devoid of citizen input. We work hard, and we'll like some of what gets in.
Gone Corporate wrote:^^John, I wish I could, but I make it a rule not to argue with strangers on the interwebs.
On a side note, reading this made me laugh really hard for a good twenty seconds. It read like something a schoolkid would say.
"Make me!"
A serious thanks, because I needed that.
Now, back to b*tching over something you have no control over. Have fun with that.
EDIT: Recognize that you responded immediately after I called out "nearsighted idiots". If someone yells out in a crowded bar, "Hey a**hole!", would you turn around as if being called by name? Didn't think so, but you did here. Interesting.
I seriously doubt you could, but we'll leave that for another real world meeting... I'd submit that writing, in bold type, "shut your pieholes" and directing it toward those with whom you disagree is exactly what a schoolkid would do or say. It's an interesting observation that those who actually know of McKee's past actions in north city have written the most substantive things in this forum regarding the prospect of McKee controlling so much land, and those who do not seem to know offer pith and seem so willing to drink kook-aid. I'd suggest you educate yourself a bit more about McKee prior to spouting off about how this area of the city is soon to be the brightest, shining spot.
A forum is about opinions, and the ability to share those opinions within a moderated framework, so I'd hope that I wouldn't have to read something someone has just written that orders me to "shut [my] piehole" because they disagree with something I or some others have said. A civic group meets on the first Thursday of each month, and this coming Thursday's meeting is the matter of divisiveness among those interested, and how alliances can be formed between 'outsiders' and actual residents of these neighborhoods regarding the demand for inclusion. You are welcome to attend, and you'd then be able to judge for yourself whether or not those who offer counterargument to your position are "nearsighted idiots".
"Neighbors for Social Justice" may be loud, but they are not representative of North St. Louis. Of the ten people that signed their petition, how many live in North St. Louis? And how many are African American? To be credible, one must have broader support amongst the constituency.
john_w spoke about the divisiveness inherent in the movement "led" by Barbara Manzara and Sheila Rendon. I agree. Screaming curse words and disparaging a person's race in any setting -- let alone a house of god -- is altogether unacceptable. In a prior post, Barbara condoned this action. Even more outrageous, they oppose public investment in a downtrodden, African American neighborhood. If I were an African-American living in North St. Louis, I wouldn't take too kindly to these folks fighting tooth and nail to prevent investment in my neighborhood. One could learn a lot about divisiveness by observing this group that places childish anger over the well-being of a neighborhood overlooked for far too long.
Through their words and actions, they have discredited themselves in the eyes of the public. Does it really matter if they speak or not if no one is listening? If you would like to express your concerns to this group, please contact them at the numbers listed in their letter: http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/buildi ... 527091.pdf
It's a shame there appears to be such a void of mature, professional social justice advocates in St. Louis. Since this group has chosen to alienate itself, I recommend the aldermen consider bringing in a consultant of their own that has a proven track record that may include CBA experience.
innov8ion wrote:john_w spoke about the divisiveness inherent in the movement "led" by Barbara Manzara and Sheila Rendon.
Huh? What did he write that can be interpreted that way? john_w did write about divisiveness inherent in trying to forge an alliance of "urbanists" and residents.
innov8ion wrote:Does it really matter if they speak or not if no one is listening?
By "no one," do you mean regular posters on this forum?
By the way, the McEagle TIF application is online:
^ This thread has 10,360 views by hundreds of readers.
What we have observed is a well-to-do white woman in a predominantly black, depressed neighborhood that condones the use of cursing and racial overtones in a baptist church and begs the city to withdraw millions of dollars in TIF & Community Development Block Grant investment. With thee, pyrrhic victory? Is it truly that difficult to see why alliance is so lacking between self-proclaimed "urbanists" and North St. Louis residents?
Perhaps you're right and the constituency will be receptive to this kind of progressive thinking. I'm sure that she and those in her movement are great folks, but a bit of maturity and pragmatism could go a long way if their true interest is in advancing the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
innov8ion wrote:This thread has 10,360 views by hundreds of readers.
What we have observed is a well-to-do white woman in a predominantly black, depressed neighborhood that condones the use of cursing and racial overtones in a baptist church and begs the city to withdraw millions of dollars in TIF & Community Development Block Grant investment.
Perhaps you're right and the constituency will be receptive to this kind of progressive thinking. I'm sure that she and those in her movement are great folks, but a bit of maturity and pragmatism could go a long way if their true interest is in advancing the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
I think the maturity and pragmatism you're looking for is to be found in the CBA that has been proposed. Lookie here: http://www.communitybenefits.org/articl ... pe&type=39 I'll sum up: the parties come to the table, agree on a mutually beneficial vision, and move forward. Getting the parties together will advance the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
So much for his commitment to existing businesses. And look at what he wants to take on the North Side! Fehlig Brothers? Churches and Church Parking lots? Who put this list together? A random search in a database?
innov8ion wrote:This thread has 10,360 views by hundreds of readers.
What we have observed is a well-to-do white woman in a predominantly black, depressed neighborhood that condones the use of cursing and racial overtones in a baptist church and begs the city to withdraw millions of dollars in TIF & Community Development Block Grant investment.
Perhaps you're right and the constituency will be receptive to this kind of progressive thinking. I'm sure that she and those in her movement are great folks, but a bit of maturity and pragmatism could go a long way if their true interest is in advancing the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
I think the maturity and pragmatism you're looking for is to be found in the CBA that has been proposed. Lookie here: http://www.communitybenefits.org/articl ... pe&type=39 I'll sum up: the parties come to the table, agree on a mutually beneficial vision, and move forward. Getting the parties together will advance the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
Is this "CBA" to be created in an open process representative of a broad NorthSide demographic? I have failed to hear of any such process which gives me pause to believe we are observing anything but the status quo of back-room activist dealings to push a selfish, contemptible agenda.
Let me ask. Is this activist group working a CBA within the existing political structures (aka w/ the aldermen?) If not, what credibility do they have to come to any negotiating table? Is it not hard to conceive that parties with such vitriol can negotiate in good faith and in the best interest of NorthSide residents?
It is time for a broad spectrum of NorthSide resident's voices to be heard and not this skewing by an irresponsible minority. Once again, perhaps it is time for the aldermen to create an open CBA process, representative of the NorthSide demographic. Show me leadership!
Show yourself leadership. If you want that from the alderpersons, and suspect that the current effort by citizen acitivists is somehow subversive, then do it yourself. Calling a group of citizen activists "irresponsible" after seeing what McKee's been doing for the last five years is about as hypocritical as it gets. Contempible? Please. Get a clue. If you're so concerned about the motives of this CBA then contact them yourself and find out about their intent of demographic representational breadth, and stop being what you claim they are. Instead of investigating, you act out of suspicion, opposition, and plain ignorance. The difference between someone like you and the folks you keep naming as (insert your insult of choice here) is that this group of activists have INVESTIGATED something to substantiate their arguments. You most likely have not.
innov8ion wrote:^ This thread has 10,360 views by hundreds of readers.
What we have observed is a well-to-do white woman in a predominantly black, depressed neighborhood that condones the use of cursing and racial overtones in a baptist church and begs the city to withdraw millions of dollars in TIF & Community Development Block Grant investment. With thee, pyrrhic victory? Is it truly that difficult to see why alliance is so lacking between self-proclaimed "urbanists" and North St. Louis residents?
Perhaps you're right and the constituency will be receptive to this kind of progressive thinking. I'm sure that she and those in her movement are great folks, but a bit of maturity and pragmatism could go a long way if their true interest is in advancing the welfare of the neighborhood. Do you disagree?
Thanks for sharing the TIF application.
You're welcome, innov8ion. NSJ members dealt with the Sunshine Law red tape, time off work to go downtown, and all the irritating scanning-pdfing-OCR chores for your convenience
I see you going for the ad-hominem attacks, and making a big deal out of race and gender to jack up the emotionality of your posts whenever possible. I also see that you are posting anonymously, but making every effort to ensure that all the guys posting here have put 2-and-2 together about the name and phone number of one of very few women posting openly on this board. What is that about? Is it supposed to scare me away?
It sounds like you want to take this into a realm of real-world action rather than just posting online. I heartily support this idea -- NSJ and other neighborhood groups are largely offline, working on the street level. I just pop in here to ensure this forum remembers that this plan affects real people. We would love to have you come on up and visit us and talk face-to-face, north of Delmar.
You can come to my home at 3202 N 19th St, or Sheila's home at 2314 Mullanphy Avenue, any Sunday after mass. Bring beer. Usually we are grilling and plotting the overthrow of Paul McKee at one place or the other, with the kids running around in the yard playing with the pets.
I can gather a group of us together so you can determine to your satisfaction the ratio of participation of african-americans, hispanics, asians and caucasians. We ask that you don't bother the children, though. Several of them are multi-ethnic and find race-based questions to be offensive and old-fashioned.
Snark aside, give me a call. If you can take it as well as you dish it, you might have a good time. And you won't be anonymous anymore!
I would love to shake the pastor's hand for the little speech he gave after that moron stood up and yelled like that. Unfortunately everyone in the place didn't yell at him to leave, he instead got a few cheers from a few simpletons.
I wonder what part of south St Louis or the county that douche lived in.
