urbanSTL

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

Jun 29, 2018

To me, the flood wall is holding it back. It doesn't have the same sort of riverfront frontage that Laclede's Landing has that adds some attraction. It's kind of like sitting at a desk facing a wall to me. I guess Laclede's has the advantage of being on a slow slope instead of flat grade.

My two cents worth is maybe Powell Square shouldn't be developed at all like Laclede's Landing or simply put another competing residential, entertainment, mixed used district.

As bwcrow1 notes its a very different landscape and as in other posts the possibility of a major investment to reshape the freeway, flood wall and so on isn't in the realm of reality Instead, trying to find a way to build up light industrial, makers spaces, micro manufacturers and food producers or essentially blue collar hands on jobs within easy walking/biking of Laclede's, Downtown, Soulard, etc. .

Supposedly St. Mary of Victories is working with some developer to try to get a plan to redevelop this area. Wasn't given the full details but was told it would be phased and focused on getting people down here+beautfying the area.

I dug around and contacted people and supposedly a local developer and a national developer seem ready to acquire the buildings within the district and fix them up. Their names weren't mentioned but one interesting piece described to me how the plan calls for making Gratiot 2 way and upgrading the intersection in front of Game 6 Honky Tonk into a 3 way stop for an easy entry/exit out of the future district.

I was finally told to expect something soon but how soon is up in the air. The uses weren't defined but the desire is to save the remaining buildings including the one that was on fire.

Whoa, never realized that Gratiot and Lombard were one-way streets. I've definitely driven the wrong way on those multiple times.
KC's West Bottoms recently had a huge announcement. A very similar area, a former industrial wasteland of sorts with beautiful historic warehouses. There needs to be attention to detail on the street level. Creative adaptation of the truck docks into restaurant patios, thoughtful paving of streets and sidewalks, some of those European lights that are suspended over the middle of the street

^Could be that they're only one way between 3rd and Broadway. I don't really take the blocks between 3rd and 4th much, but street view makes it look like they really are two way around Crunden Martin, but turn one way under the highway.

Any further rumblings on Chouteau's Landing by chance? I know the info was vague, but I feel like every day that passes without a plan is a bad thing for this district. Could really help stitch Soulard to Downtown.

bwcrow1s wrote: Any further rumblings on Chouteau's Landing by chance? I know the info was vague, but I feel like every day that passes without a plan is a bad thing for this district.  Could really help stitch Soulard to Downtown.

What I said in my last post remains true. Plans are still being worked on and land deals are being created. If I don't hear anything soon, I'll contact the potential developer again. In addition to this, the developer will be invited to a Forum/Reader meetup I am planning. Details on that are really vague right now. 

Great news!  That area has been ripe for development for a long time!

Awesome! The renovation of the abandoned and falling down buildings will just as much if not more for the image of STL for those crossing the PSB than any new skyscraper. These are the projects that matter that most!

I can't wait to see something.  I've been championing this area for years.

Hey, they already have a distillery right in the neighborhood too!

I think the goal that the developers want to do is make Chouteau’s Landing an anchor first to strengthen the 3 bars and few businesses in the area while also bringing people down to the area. While the parking lot lords own the lots, they’ll have to sell for the right amount of money. In my mind, I think you could make 4th and Broadway great streets to walk down. Improve the sidewalks, upgrade lighting, some street trees, curb bump outs and a bike lane could help promote people walk South. Even though you’ll walk under highway and rail bridges and will walk by parking lots, the experience will be a little bit better.

I think at this point, Infill on 4th Street is critical. The Meineke site is for sale which could be Redeveloped, the large parking lot at 4th and Lombard can be subdivided and those crumbling old buildings on the intact portion of the 4th Street Street Wall can be Redeveloped, for a considerable amount of money. If you get 4th Street taken care of, that will give people more incentive to come down to this area.

But I do think that Chouteau’s Landing can bring some much needed attention to this side of Downtown. The overhead site plan shows this to be a large scale project.


Please know that this is an older conceptual master plan. Plans have changed since then.

chaifetz10 wrote:The parking lot lords will most likely just up their asking price if/when this concept starts to become reality.  So we should never assume that they'd sell early or at low prices.

That will certainly be the case. They'll jack their "sweet spot price" up. I know that they won't sell now, and maybe never, but there is always a sweet spot if someone is persistent enough to try to acquire a site. Money talks and that's the point I was trying to make. 

I'm over the amount of green space. The new Greenway will be great.  But just because we are creating a Greenway,  doesnt mean we need to take lots away from development. 

pat wrote:I'm over the amount of green space. The new Greenway will be great.  But just because we are creating a Greenway,  doesnt mean we need to take lots away from development. 

The lots being taken away for green space are hard to develop. Especially East of the rail bridge. The flood wall and train bridge limit what you can do there. As I said, the plan I posted was very conceptual, so things can change. 

If you wanted better connection to the north the way to get it would probably involve moving the park's maintenance complex onto one of the vacant lots south of Poplar and replacing that with something more inventive and inviting. Would be a win win. Heck, maybe move the maintenance and put a new arch garage there that could serve a redevloping Chouteau's Landing as well. Make it something subtle and tasteful. Since folks are saying the riverfront garage is on its way out a new one will be desired. shuffle things around some. Put some development on the planned green space and green space on the dying garage that floods too much anyway. Put a new garage behind the floodwall where it will work better. Push some foot traffic south of the garage into a new Chouteau district. Add density and activity to Laclede to draw people north. Maybe everyone wins?

It doesn't feel like the south bank is on a slope like Laclede's Landing.  Is that correct? Or does it just seem that way because of the flood wall location?

Back in the day I'm sure they build up to the trestle just out of necessity.  Nowadays, I don't think new residents or business owners want to be tasked with the headache of dealing with flooding, should it happen.  I'm tired of green space myself, but not sure that you could build up to the levee unless you raised some land or something, which is a problem in it of itself.

Perhaps there's some sort of ingenious flood wall that can be implemented by humungous underground motors.  Lol.  I do think a big draw of reconnecting us to the riverfront, though, is actually seeing and interacting with it more easily.  At some point you toss in the towel of developing that close to the river, or brave the possibility of flooding.  I think the easiest is to just put some distance between development and the river.  I also don't see the flood wall going anywhere, unfortunately.  Perhaps there need simply be more access points through the wall.

Honestly, yes, that's very conceptual, but I do like the interaction with the trestles.  I think living there could be somewhat cool to have trains pass by every so often.

If this comes to fruition I hope it is accompanied by some kind of street calming on 4th and Broadway. Right now those roads feel like (and often are) deathtraps. I would love to see wider shaded sidewalks protected by a separated bike lane on each road. Not only would it make a nice bike/scooter connection to the Chouteau's Landing and Soulard but it would also help the businesses that already exist in the area. The roads are definitely wide enough.

chriss752 wrote: I think the goal that the developers want to do is make Chouteau’s Landing an anchor first to strengthen the 3 bars and few businesses in the area while also bringing people down to the area. While the parking lot lords own the lots, they’ll have to sell for the right amount of money. In my mind, I think you could make 4th and Broadway great streets to walk down. Improve the sidewalks, upgrade lighting, some street trees, curb bump outs and a bike lane could help promote people walk South. Even though you’ll walk under highway and rail bridges and will walk by parking lots, the experience will be a little bit better.

I think at this point, Infill on 4th Street is critical. The Meineke site is for sale which could be Redeveloped, the large parking lot at 4th and Lombard can be subdivided and those crumbling old buildings on the intact portion of the 4th Street Street Wall can be Redeveloped, for a considerable amount of money. If you get 4th Street taken care of, that will give people more incentive to come down to this area.

But I do think that Chouteau’s Landing can bring some much needed attention to this side of Downtown. The overhead site plan shows this to be a large scale project.

This concept is great if you accept there is no way to work a deal with the railroads.  Imagine what could be if they converted the northern most trestle to pedestrian uses, removed the leg that bends south and rebuild the N-S trestle slightly east so that a row of storefronts could be built along 1st.

Don't get me wrong this is almost exactly what i would hope for for the area, minus getting rid of some of the rail and expanding the footprint for development.

We basically agree on 4th street.  If i was the developer i would be hesitant to invest heavily in Chouteaus Landing before Broadway and 4th picked up some momentum simply because Chouteau is so isolated.  Of course i would think they would be doing some investing down there to push that outcome sooner than later.  The Meineke site is a little tricky, i just hope they won't let it become more parking even though that seems like the Easy button choice.

STLEnginerd wrote:

chriss752 wrote: I think the goal that the developers want to do is make Chouteau’s Landing an anchor first to strengthen the 3 bars and few businesses in the area while also bringing people down to the area. While the parking lot lords own the lots, they’ll have to sell for the right amount of money. In my mind, I think you could make 4th and Broadway great streets to walk down. Improve the sidewalks, upgrade lighting, some street trees, curb bump outs and a bike lane could help promote people walk South. Even though you’ll walk under highway and rail bridges and will walk by parking lots, the experience will be a little bit better.

I think at this point, Infill on 4th Street is critical. The Meineke site is for sale which could be Redeveloped, the large parking lot at 4th and Lombard can be subdivided and those crumbling old buildings on the intact portion of the 4th Street Street Wall can be Redeveloped, for a considerable amount of money. If you get 4th Street taken care of, that will give people more incentive to come down to this area.

But I do think that Chouteau’s Landing can bring some much needed attention to this side of Downtown. The overhead site plan shows this to be a large scale project.

This concept is great if you accept there is no way to work a deal with the railroads.  Imagine what could be if they converted the northern most trestle to pedestrian uses, removed the leg that bends south and rebuild the N-S trestle slightly east so that a row of storefronts could be built along 1st.

It may not look like it, but the trestle you want to remove is the south lead to the Merchants Bridge . . . albeit from a great distance away. That's basically the only way the BNSF from Springfield or Memphis and the UP from Little Rock or Jefferson City get to the Merchants. It's actually a fairly busy line, and it will be quite busy once the Merchants is replaced. The TRRA spent bank replacing the trestle along the riverfront. It really is not up for negotiation, and there's no way around that wouldn't be even more of a non-starter. You'd either have to go right through the middle of town in a tunnel, which would cost way too much, or right along the river, which would flood. (That second was done, by the way. And the city wanted it gone, so they built the north-south connector between Lesperance and the Arch Tunnel.) It was there before the Arch. It was there before the World's Fair. It was there before Jay Gould managed to buy half the railroads in the world with J. P. Morgan's help. It really only missed Compton and Dry by a dozen years or so. It will probably still be there as long as there are trains in St. Louis at all. It's been replaced a few times, but that's the route. (And the very fact that portions of it are now on their third incarnation speaks volumes.) Nothing else works or it would have been found in the last hundred odd years. (That thing is expensive, I assure you.) But it stays above water and there aren't enough alternatives as is. I suspect the TRRA will add the second track back in long before they give it up. (After they fix the bridge, to be sure.)