Like Peter points out, it looks like the entrance will be moved to the back. Not good.
And that house is awesome!
Dislike.
And that house is awesome!
Dislike.
I guess this answers the questions I had about the core driller on this site back in early 2020. Glad to see it. Snøhetta does some interesting work, so I expect the addition to be iconic in some way.
According to their Facebook post…they’re looking at “preserving elements of the historic house,” it’s toast.
- 6,117
If I'm reading the plans right only the artist's entrance would be in the back, which is already true anyway. (It's no fun when you have to load in a show through the lobby. I've worked a couple of shows like that. Better to have direct stage access.) There are two public entries marked. Both enter onto a new lobby on the south. The east entry is sort of towards the back, but convenient to the parking lot. The west entrance is on a plaza at the corner of Grand and Sam Shepard.
All that said, I do think it would be a much better project if they swung the whole thing around to the south and built it tight to both Grand Sam Shepard. Let's ditch the plazas, or at least make them much smaller. They don't really add anything to the area that isn't already there in spades. The one downside I can see to that is that it wouldn't improve access from the parking lot, since the business end of the operation needs to be behind the lobby. If you put it south of the hall it would probably have to fill most of the space between the hall and Sam Shepard. You'd still want to put your accessible parking south of the rehearsal spaces, so they could have direct access to the lobby. But everyone else would have to walk about as far as they do now. (And the patronage is a bit on the older side and they complain about that.)
Another possibility would be to make the new ancillary spaces something of a satellite building. Leave a short alley for good stage access and maybe wrap some offices and a hallway south of the house, but put the bulk of the new space east of the house in a semi attached building. It does mean some staff and artists would have to walk further, but it could all be enclosed and loading access could still be quite good.
All that said, I think the house demo should be a non-starter. I'd rather see the chorus rehearsing off site than lose one of the last Victorian houses in the neighborhood.
All that said, I do think it would be a much better project if they swung the whole thing around to the south and built it tight to both Grand Sam Shepard. Let's ditch the plazas, or at least make them much smaller. They don't really add anything to the area that isn't already there in spades. The one downside I can see to that is that it wouldn't improve access from the parking lot, since the business end of the operation needs to be behind the lobby. If you put it south of the hall it would probably have to fill most of the space between the hall and Sam Shepard. You'd still want to put your accessible parking south of the rehearsal spaces, so they could have direct access to the lobby. But everyone else would have to walk about as far as they do now. (And the patronage is a bit on the older side and they complain about that.)
Another possibility would be to make the new ancillary spaces something of a satellite building. Leave a short alley for good stage access and maybe wrap some offices and a hallway south of the house, but put the bulk of the new space east of the house in a semi attached building. It does mean some staff and artists would have to walk further, but it could all be enclosed and loading access could still be quite good.
All that said, I think the house demo should be a non-starter. I'd rather see the chorus rehearsing off site than lose one of the last Victorian houses in the neighborhood.
- 9,526
Decade of investments in St.Louis City’s cultural institutions;
Art Museum $160million
Powell Hall $100m
Central Library $70m
Arch grounds $380m
Botanical Garden $100m
STL Zoo $50m
Forest Park $100m
$960,000,000, at least.
Art Museum $160million
Powell Hall $100m
Central Library $70m
Arch grounds $380m
Botanical Garden $100m
STL Zoo $50m
Forest Park $100m
$960,000,000, at least.
Not crazy about this plan at all. Not only should the south addition go fully to the sidewalk, there should be 5 to 30 stories of apartments on top of it. Why do we need an entry plaza across the street from another plaza? A vehicular circle drive is just more of a joke. The house demolition would be fine if this were adding more to the neighborhood e.i. retail and/or apartments. Yes, I know retail struggles here but it wasn't too long ago that Grand Center lost an art gallery to Clayton because they couldn't find space nearby.
The complaints about the planned (new) circular drive I can agree with. If we wanted to put the entire renovation/expansion out of reach, then yes, let’s make them build 30 stories of residential.
While I generally like going all the way to the sidewalk, I don't mind the setback for theater entrances. If you think about how many people queue to get in before showtime then spill out afterwards it makes sense to give a little extra space there so they don't push onto the street (of course that doesn't mean the rest of the building outside of those areas can't go to the sidewalk)
- 6,117
The lines at Powell aren't usually that bad. It's a lot smaller than the fox, and the experience is much more social, thanks to the wine and cheese aspect of the concessions. (And the inability to take said into the hall.) I can live with a little bit of a plaza at the door, but the huge landscaped thing looks like more than a bit of overkill. Especially with another such directly across the street.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022The lines at Powell aren't usually that bad. It's a lot smaller than the fox, and the experience is much more social, thanks to the wine and cheese aspect of the concessions. (And the inability to take said into the hall.) I can live with a little bit of a plaza at the door, but the huge landscaped thing looks like more than a bit of overkill. Especially with another such directly across the street.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
What about Stifel Theater: $80 million?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 16, 2022Decade of investments in St.Louis City’s cultural institutions;
Art Museum $160million
Powell Hall $100m
Central Library $70m
Arch grounds $380m
Botanical Garden $100m
STL Zoo $50m
Forest Park $100m
$960,000,000, at least.
And while most of the $100 million + renovations at Enterprise went towards hockey operations, there are still plenty of cultural events there.
Powell Hall was bought in 1968 for $500,000 and $2,000,000 worth of updates. With inflation that translates to $17,000,000 in 2022 money.
$100,000,000 in updates seems absolutely transformative.
- 6,117
Really just demolishing the house. That and I'm not a fan of the amount of green space. Apart from that there's only so much you can read from a single sketch floor plan.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022The lines at Powell aren't usually that bad. It's a lot smaller than the fox, and the experience is much more social, thanks to the wine and cheese aspect of the concessions. (And the inability to take said into the hall.) I can live with a little bit of a plaza at the door, but the huge landscaped thing looks like more than a bit of overkill. Especially with another such directly across the street.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
- 10K
If any house can/should be moved, it's that one. Move it one block to the south, next to the existing house on Samuel Shepard near Theresa.
Perfect solution. With the big budget and donators who seem to be civic minded, you'd hope logic prevails.debaliviere wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022If any house can/should be moved, it's that one. Move it one block to the south, next to the existing house on Samuel Shepard near Theresa.
For comparison, does anyone know how much KC's all-new symphony hall cost?
It feels like a suburban site plan on an urban site. Specifically the setbacks, the pick-up drive, and demoing buildings in the way rather than working around them. Granted it's a fairly vague site plan in that we can't see the interior floor plan or if they plan on incorporating the existing house somehow, but that's the feeling I get from it. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see the investment and a lot of their goals and plans seem good, I just think the site plan could improved.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022The lines at Powell aren't usually that bad. It's a lot smaller than the fox, and the experience is much more social, thanks to the wine and cheese aspect of the concessions. (And the inability to take said into the hall.) I can live with a little bit of a plaza at the door, but the huge landscaped thing looks like more than a bit of overkill. Especially with another such directly across the street.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
In a way it does. But I’m not going to get angry about the drop off lane given the average age of the SLSO attendee. Yes it would be nice if there was little parking and everyone arrived/departed via public transportation. But we need to be honest about the demographics. We need to not look at this from the point of view of mobile 20 to 50 year olds._nomad_ wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022It feels like a suburban site plan on an urban site. Specifically the setbacks, the pick-up drive, and demoing buildings in the way rather than working around them. Granted it's a fairly vague site plan in that we can't see the interior floor plan or if they plan on incorporating the existing house somehow, but that's the feeling I get from it. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see the investment and a lot of their goals and plans seem good, I just think the site plan could improved.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022The lines at Powell aren't usually that bad. It's a lot smaller than the fox, and the experience is much more social, thanks to the wine and cheese aspect of the concessions. (And the inability to take said into the hall.) I can live with a little bit of a plaza at the door, but the huge landscaped thing looks like more than a bit of overkill. Especially with another such directly across the street.
I do agree that we shouldn't insist on residential or commercial. It's an orchestra. Let them do orchestra. They were one of the true pioneers investing in the neighborhood. I do think the addition should be good, but I don't think they need to pretend to be landlords trying to rent space out in a neighborhood where that's at least a little challenging. I want them to leave the house alone. (Restore it, actually, since they already own it and have for a bunch of years now. The current condition is clearly a case of "we're going to tear it down anyway so why fix it?" demo by neglect.) But the goals seem pretty reasonable. They understand what they need. They want a way for elderly and disabled patrons to be able to use the hall easily; to have easy journeys into and through the space. They want musicians to have easy access and good spaces to rehearse and store valuable instruments. They want communication from the front of house to backstage to flow smoothly, but in a controlled fashion. They need more elevators. They want more concession space. They want the balcony seating to be more comfortable and safer for the less mobile. All of this is pretty laudable. And I favor finding a way to let them do it. (Not that my opinion matters all that much.) But I do think we can ask for it to be done well.
According to my mother in law the last movie at the St. Louis Theater/Powell Hall was “The Sound of Music”. It played there for nearly 9 months.
I'm not going to get angry about it either, but I think there are more urban-friendly ways of accomplishing it such as laying it out as a cut-through from Delmar to Samuel Shepard. There are ways to get a drop-off without a 40-50 foot building setback and driveway arc. I think it'll be a nice addition the way it is, but that doesn't mean there isn't also room for improvement.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022In a way it does. But I’m not going to get angry about the drop off lane given the average age of the SLSO attendee. Yes it would be nice if there was little parking and everyone arrived/departed via public transportation. But we need to be honest about the demographics. We need to not look at this from the point of view of mobile 20 to 50 year olds._nomad_ wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022It feels like a suburban site plan on an urban site. Specifically the setbacks, the pick-up drive, and demoing buildings in the way rather than working around them. Granted it's a fairly vague site plan in that we can't see the interior floor plan or if they plan on incorporating the existing house somehow, but that's the feeling I get from it. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see the investment and a lot of their goals and plans seem good, I just think the site plan could improved.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?
- 3,762
i sure hope Emily Rauh Pulitzer and her task force do a better job overseeing this than they did with the SLAM expansion. and no way in hell should that mansion be demolished. any other city would find a way to incorporate it into the design.
I dislike this justification. While because of the class & race of most SLSO attendees I think it's unlikely they get there via public transportation, there are plenty of elderly people who ride it/depend on it, and there's nothing in the plan about adding benches to nearby stops so they can sit while waiting for a bus.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022In a way it does. But I’m not going to get angry about the drop off lane given the average age of the SLSO attendee. Yes it would be nice if there was little parking and everyone arrived/departed via public transportation. But we need to be honest about the demographics. We need to not look at this from the point of view of mobile 20 to 50 year olds._nomad_ wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022It feels like a suburban site plan on an urban site. Specifically the setbacks, the pick-up drive, and demoing buildings in the way rather than working around them. Granted it's a fairly vague site plan in that we can't see the interior floor plan or if they plan on incorporating the existing house somehow, but that's the feeling I get from it. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see the investment and a lot of their goals and plans seem good, I just think the site plan could improved.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 17, 2022What about the plan makes you feel that it's not being "done well"?
It's also unclear to me that there's an issue with dropping people off in front of the Hall on Grand. Plenty of older people like my parents, who are now less mobile and have more trouble walking, also drive themselves so would benefit little from a drop off like this when they have to park their car.
I realize the people on this forum skew younger, but it would be nice if an older person could make this case rather than people here assuming what they want.
Demolition of that historic house is clearly unnecessary for this plan. It could make a very cool short term rooming for traveling musicians or offices or what have you.
Write to Marlene Davis though I don’t know if she cares much about historic preservation.
Atleast there might be an opportunity to speak up at preservation board’s hearing of the national register designation…. Even if it might be out of scope. I will plan on it and would urge any of you that care to do the same.
Write to Marlene Davis though I don’t know if she cares much about historic preservation.
Atleast there might be an opportunity to speak up at preservation board’s hearing of the national register designation…. Even if it might be out of scope. I will plan on it and would urge any of you that care to do the same.