urbanSTL

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

1:45 AM - Jun 19

I expect it to be scaled back. Not because of demand but because of the neighbors. Too much traffic, too many people, too tall of buildings, too much density, doesn’t attract the white kind of people.

The development in terms of max square footage, building heights and residential units has already been approved by the city.  At this point,  the only thing that needs city approval going forward is the architectural  review of each building.  There has already been talks with a very high end hotel operator that is interested in the development, along with some higher end retailers. 

Welp... they officially lost me and any sort of interest I had... this is gross...the developer of Downtown Chesterfield went on this podcast and point blank states that they're going to actively drain the Galleria, Frontenac and West County of their stores once it's built... so, he tears down one dead mall...in order to try to influence the creation of 2-3 dead malls...f*ck this guy and this!  Listen to his remarks starting at the 4:40 mark:

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

3:11 PM - Jul 17

Welp... they officially lost me and any sort of interest I had... this is gross...the developer of Downtown Chesterfield went on this podcast and point blank states that they're going to actively drain the Galleria, Frontenac and West County of their stores once it's built... so, he tears down one dead mall...in order to try to influence the creation of 2-3 dead malls...f*ck this guy and this!  Listen to his remarks starting at the 4:40 mark:

I predict the Galleria turns into some sort of mixed use lifestyle center eventually. The developments like downtown Chesterfield aren't a problem in itself, but the lack of regional growth just creates shuffling on the deck of the Titanic.

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:35 PM - Jul 17

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

3:11 PM - Jul 17

Welp... they officially lost me and any sort of interest I had... this is gross...the developer of Downtown Chesterfield went on this podcast and point blank states that they're going to actively drain the Galleria, Frontenac and West County of their stores once it's built... so, he tears down one dead mall...in order to try to influence the creation of 2-3 dead malls...f*ck this guy and this!  Listen to his remarks starting at the 4:40 mark:

I predict the Galleria turns into some sort of mixed use lifestyle center eventually. The developments like downtown Chesterfield aren't a problem in itself, but the lack of regional growth just creates shuffling on the deck of the Titanic.

His particular line, "these stores at the Galleria and West County should be at Chesterfield.."...that's some manifest destiny coded sh*t right there. 

Yea there's a very low chance this will be good for St. Louis as a region. They're also very clearly competing directly with Clayton, mentioned multiple times how they want to lure young people away from Clayton.

It's pretty pathetic, but it has always been pretty obvious this development was just gonna be a leech off of actually prosperous areas. That's what Chesterfield has literally always been and that's what it always will be.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

Time to revive the “Friends don’t let friends live in chesterfield” campaign.

It would be really nice to cut down on this zero sum competition with consolidation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ Yep, way too many muni's for a slow growth region.   

"A fun, urban, environment"

Guarantee there won't be a bar open past 11 in this whole development  

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

3:47 PM - Jul 17

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:35 PM - Jul 17

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

3:11 PM - Jul 17

Welp... they officially lost me and any sort of interest I had... this is gross...the developer of Downtown Chesterfield went on this podcast and point blank states that they're going to actively drain the Galleria, Frontenac and West County of their stores once it's built... so, he tears down one dead mall...in order to try to influence the creation of 2-3 dead malls...f*ck this guy and this!  Listen to his remarks starting at the 4:40 mark:

I predict the Galleria turns into some sort of mixed use lifestyle center eventually. The developments like downtown Chesterfield aren't a problem in itself, but the lack of regional growth just creates shuffling on the deck of the Titanic.

His particular line, "these stores at the Galleria and West County should be at Chesterfield.."...that's some manifest destiny coded sh*t right there. 

What's frustrating is that this isn't the first time Chesterfield has pulled a move like this. Remember when they built two competing outlet malls just to claim the title of premier shopping destination? That sealed the fate of the Mills—which had previously drawn business away from Warrenton, which itself had undercut Wentzville.
This kind of retail cannibalism needs to stop.

STLCityMike wrote: ↑

10:03 AM - Jul 22

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

3:47 PM - Jul 17

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:35 PM - Jul 17

I predict the Galleria turns into some sort of mixed use lifestyle center eventually. The developments like downtown Chesterfield aren't a problem in itself, but the lack of regional growth just creates shuffling on the deck of the Titanic.

His particular line, "these stores at the Galleria and West County should be at Chesterfield.."...that's some manifest destiny coded sh*t right there. 

What's frustrating is that this isn't the first time Chesterfield has pulled a move like this. Remember when they built two competing outlet malls just to claim the title of premier shopping destination? That sealed the fate of the Mills—which had previously drawn business away from Warrenton, which itself had undercut Wentzville.
This kind of retail cannibalism needs to stop.

The fate of the Mills was due to a bad bet and bad timing. Developers thought that growth would continue north but it ended up sprawling west. The GFC was the final nail in the coffin. 

No energy or attempt to actually bring something novel in. It’s purely take this business and get them to relocate to our new development

Chesterfield has done this with office space, retail and residents. Has truly been the bane of our urban environment for the past 40 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why does everyone assume that he's suggesting stealing tenants rather than building a development that prompts them to open a new store? Assuming a high end national retail tenant can only go into a new development if they close or relocate their other stores is peak STL pessimism. 

And to be honest, the disdain for Chesterfield on this board is at a level that there is literally no tenant, concept or use that they could announce that wouldn't get the same reaction. If they pursue tenants that have locations in the market already they're stealing them. If they pursue tenants that aren't in the market, they're simply preventing those tenant from going to the city even though they've chosen not to for years. 

All of it stems from lack of growth in the region. This market needs anything and everything it can get to find some way to spark growth. Every single major market in the country has developments ongoing that are the same as the one mentioned in this thread. Every single one. They're typically viewed as net positives. 

jbacott wrote: ↑

2:50 PM - Jul 23

Why does everyone assume that he's suggesting stealing tenants rather than building a development that prompts them to open a new store? Assuming a high end national retail tenant can only go into a new development if they close or relocate their other stores is peak STL pessimism. 

And to be honest, the disdain for Chesterfield on this board is at a level that there is literally no tenant, concept or use that they could announce that wouldn't get the same reaction. If they pursue tenants that have locations in the market already they're stealing them. If they pursue tenants that aren't in the market, they're simply preventing those tenant from going to the city even though they've chosen not to for years. 

All of it stems from lack of growth in the region. This market needs anything and everything it can get to find some way to spark growth. Every single major market in the country has developments ongoing that are the same as the one mentioned in this thread. Every single one. They're typically viewed as net positives. 

Because this is St Louis. Not Chicago... New York... LA... it's not pessimism. It's the actual reality of this market. Mid-tier and low-tier brands can find support in multiple locations here. They are not what we are talking about though. We're talking upscaled/luxury market. Our regional spending power is not like those bigger markets. There are people with money here obviously... look how long Frontenac has been sustained for as the gravitational center of luxury good consumerism in this area... but not like that. This is a largely middle- and low-income region predominantly. 

 No, I debate you on that. In our region, as it is presently, we cannot sustain more than one location of "exclusive" discerning" high-end brands. We don't have the critical mass for it. There's a reason Nordstrom closed up shop at Galleria. And it's why these big-ticket brands all co-located in Frontenac... with the exception of the slightest peppering on Maryland Ave in the CWE. We all wish the inner city had the cache of the presence of some high fashion decadent names... but to put it bluntly, it's not bloody well likely any time soon. The city still has a long way to go, before the inner city can draw them in. Frustrating... sad... but true.

Which is why... even though they're technically not in the city itself... allowing these brands presence to further skew westward away from the urban core AND also in turn generating further vacancies in an already precariously sensitive, limited market is definitively decline being propelled further on. This man wants to poach from our inner-ring, not adding anything new-to-market, (based on his own words in that pod interview... it's possible Downtown Chesterfield COULD lure new-to-market names... but that's not what he said in his remarks), and thus would further weaken/destabilize the branded retail base of the inner ring and inward, thereby generating further vacancy. If what he envisions comes to fruition, it could lower the prestige tier of both Frontenac and West County, where you'd see increased vacancy. And would almost certainly sound the death knell for the Galleria, if it lost most of its luxury branded storefronts.

Shuffling the deck and pulling existing retail frontage from one part of the region to another does not improve the region. It just moves that gravity elsewhere and drives traffic away from healthy existing commercial areas. This is not a brand-new tactic. We've seen it before. And look what has happened every time. And this would be that all over again. It is not doomer mentality to look at past receipts and see a problematic pattern.

jbacott wrote:Why does everyone assume that he's suggesting stealing tenants rather than building a development that prompts them to open a new store? Assuming a high end national retail tenant can only go into a new development if they close or relocate their other stores is peak STL pessimism. 

And to be honest, the disdain for Chesterfield on this board is at a level that there is literally no tenant, concept or use that they could announce that wouldn't get the same reaction. If they pursue tenants that have locations in the market already they're stealing them. If they pursue tenants that aren't in the market, they're simply preventing those tenant from going to the city even though they've chosen not to for years. 

All of it stems from lack of growth in the region. This market needs anything and everything it can get to find some way to spark growth. Every single major market in the country has developments ongoing that are the same as the one mentioned in this thread. Every single one. They're typically viewed as net positives. 

The primary reason this development is bad is because St. Louis is a bubble when there is no real regional growth. So any new development here inhernetly must at least leech customers from other businesses, and in this case, the developer literally said he thinks businesses that are currently at WCC, Frontenac, or the Galleria "should" be in Chesterfield. This frame of mind alone is disqualifiying. Chesterfield itself isn't even growing anymore.

So reality is that this development is being pushed because Chesterfield has a fiscal cliff looming and they need to boost tax revenue, and this development will draw business and customers away from better developed and more sustainable parts of the region, such as Clayton, Brentwood, Richmond Heights, and ofcourse the city. Overall, STL as a region will be weaker and less healthy if this development is successful, so it's failure is in our best interest.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

So much negativity on here. Are y'all suggesting this site would be better off not being a mixed-use development? If this site were converted to single-family homes, this forum would be full of posts saying it was a missed opportunity for mixed-use development. Personally, I am excited to see this urban form in Chesterfield. As someone who doesn't earn enough to shop at Plaza Frontenac, I have little concern about where those shops end up.  

It mostly comes down to how you interpret his comments and what tenants he's talking about. If by "high end retail", he's talking about a 60,000sf Nieman Marcus or another Gucci store, then no, STL can't support another one. If it's tenants like 5,000sf lululemon or Evereve stores like the ones at the Galleria or West County then yes, STL absolutely can. And my interpretation of his comments were that Chesterfield has the demos and the market for "upscale" (very different than luxury) tenants, but doesn't have the type of retail space they want yet. Provide that and they'll open another store.

But ultimately everyone agrees that the stagnant growth is the main problem. I happen to think it's a net positive to rip down an 80's vintage indoor mall and replace it with a modern, mixed-use development even if it is in Chesterfield. 

I feel like we are forgetting that this site was previously home to nearly 1.4 million square feet of retail. The new development will only have half the amount of retail that Chesterfield mall did it.

I can tell you for a fact that there are numerous higher-end retailers that want to open a store in St. Louis, but are not able to currently find a site that fits their needs. Both Plaza Frontenac and West County Mall are at full capacity and don’t have space for many new retailers. And unfortunately, the Galleria is no longer an option for new to market upscale or high end retail in St. Louis.

Some of these retailers that want to be in St. Louis also prefer to be in Chesterfield versus West County because of the proximity to Saint Charles County. More people from St. Charles are willing to drive in the Chesterfield shop and they are to drive to Des Peres and shop at West County Mall.

Echo_216 wrote:So much negativity on here. Are y'all suggesting this site would be better off not being a mixed-use development? If this site were converted to single-family homes, this forum would be full of posts saying it was a missed opportunity for mixed-use development. Personally, I am excited to see this urban form in Chesterfield. As someone who doesn't earn enough to shop at Plaza Frontenac, I have little concern about where those shops end up.  

Yes it would be way way way better off for the region if this was SFHs instead of a development with the specific goal of competing with other parts of the region. This is an obvious fact.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

Obviously, as this is an urbanist forum, we all would rather have density in the core of the region, but I think we all — myself included — don't realize how much that preference is a minority in the United States overall, and in St. Louis even more so.

The vast majority of Americans want to live in suburbia with big houses, lawns, and cars. I certainly don't, but many, many do. In 2026, every place in the US with booming/large growth is suburban. For the STL region to choose not to better develop our suburbs — and I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that, but there's a common POV that any suburban growth is a negative for STL city — would put the region even further behind.

I said this on Twitter some weeks back, but the story below has really crystallized my opinion on how/why places in the US boom. Suburban Dallas is the ultimate boomtown in 2026, just as California was in the mid-20th century. Why (mostly)? New, new, new, new.

https://www.texastribune.org/text/230077/

The fast-growing suburbs tend to have relatively more affordable housing options than the core cities and greater proximity to newer schools, parks and trails, and modern commercial areas, said Cullum Clark, director of the George W. Bush Institute's Economic Growth Initiative at Southern Methodist University. A perception of better public safety in the suburbs also makes them attractive, he said. Meanwhile, more established places like Dallas, Arlington, Plano, and Irving aren't adding homes
 or redeveloping as quickly — if at all.

"The newness is the attraction," Clark said.

No potholes, little trash, no street people, etc. 

It's not for me, but I get the appeal. So, make something *NEW* in Chesterfield, or I fear the region will continue to go from slow to no growth.

StlAlex wrote: ↑

10:57 PM - Jul 23

EaKesslerSTL wrote:I feel like we are forgetting that this site was previously home to nearly 1.4 million square feet of retail. The new development will only have half the amount of retail that Chesterfield mall did it.

I can tell you for a fact that there are numerous higher-end retailers that want to open a store in St. Louis, but are not able to currently find a site that fits their needs. Both Plaza Frontenac and West County Mall are at full capacity and don’t have space for many new retailers. And unfortunately, the Galleria is no longer an option for new to market upscale or high end retail in St. Louis.

Some of these retailers that want to be in St. Louis also prefer to be in Chesterfield versus West County because of the proximity to Saint Charles County. More people from St. Charles are willing to drive in the Chesterfield shop and they are to drive to Des Peres and shop at West County Mall.

It was home to 1.4 million sf of retail in an era where retail was not dying, the internet was not king, and the region was actually growing.

If it attracts new high end retail, then thats great. The concern being brought up here is that the developer specifically said that retail currently at WCC or the Galleria "should" be in Chesterfield. He unambiguously said their goal is to leech retail from other parts of the region, not bring in new retailers.

Also, and this is always the case, catering to St. Charles and making the lives of people who choose to live in narnia, is fundamentally bad and not something an urbanist forum should be supporting or happy about at all.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

Michael Staenberg chose his words poorly.  What he was trying to get across is that Chesterfield should be in the running for high end / upscale retailers looking to open in St. Louis given the demographics of the area but given that there isn't a quality development for these stores Chesterfield isn't an option currently. 

soulardx wrote:Obviously, as this is an urbanist forum, we all would rather have density in the core of the region, but I think we all — myself included — don't realize how much that preference is a minority in the United States overall, and in St. Louis even more so.

The vast majority of Americans want to live in suburbia with big houses, lawns, and cars. I certainly don't, but many, many do. In 2026, every place in the US with booming/large growth is suburban. For the STL region to choose not to better develop our suburbs — and I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that, but there's a common POV that any suburban growth is a negative for STL city — would put the region even further behind.

I said this on Twitter some weeks back, but the story below has really crystallized my opinion on how/why places in the US boom. Suburban Dallas is the ultimate boomtown in 2026, just as California was in the mid-20th century. Why (mostly)? New, new, new, new.

https://www.texastribune.org/text/230077/

The fast-growing suburbs tend to have relatively more affordable housing options than the core cities and greater proximity to newer schools, parks and trails, and modern commercial areas, said Cullum Clark, director of the George W. Bush Institute's Economic Growth Initiative at Southern Methodist University. A perception of better public safety in the suburbs also makes them attractive, he said. Meanwhile, more established places like Dallas, Arlington, Plano, and Irving aren't adding homes
 or redeveloping as quickly — if at all.

"The newness is the attraction," Clark said.

No potholes, little trash, no street people, etc. 

It's not for me, but I get the appeal. So, make something *NEW* in Chesterfield, or I fear the region will continue to go from slow to no growth.

I am aware people like living in subsidized houses where the entire region and country is operating for their favor. The idea is that if we stopped doing that and these leeches started actually paying for what they cost us, theyd **** off.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk