Exactly. Its a very hot area to invest rn. Therefore, they should spend their own gd moneysc4mayor wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020^ I'd be curious if if you have any research beyond "slow growth region" that says this project would be a failure. The job and population growth in these particular areas aren't a secret. The Central Corridor continues to boom, the regions major corporations and institutions continue to make billion dollar investments. Many of them (like a half a billion dollar hospital next door) are right around this area. 6,000 new jobs and over 400 new companies in Cortex alone in 13 years...aren't those the kinds of people and workers you're talking about?
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:/
Widening, right of way dedication, and restriping will be required on Grand to accommodate the new traffic signal. Further, modifications to the existing intersection at Grand and Chouteau Avenues will be required including, but not limited to, adding 2 dedicated southbound left turn lanes and a new northbound left turn lane. Additional widening, right of way dedication, and restriping will be required along Chouteau. Repaving and narrowing Spring is required and Gratiot will be repaved and straightened. New sidewalks will be provided along Iron Hill's impacted rights of way in addition to all internal roadways for maximum walkability. All sidewalks will be pedestrian friendly and include sufficient lighting. All roadway and sidewalk improvements will make it easier for residents and guests to patronize the variety of retail tenants on-site.
LOL. Yes, Chouteau definitely needs widening... Street restriping and sidewalks must be exponentially more expensive than I thought.quincunx wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020:/
Widening, right of way dedication, and restriping will be required on Grand to accommodate the new traffic signal. Further, modifications to the existing intersection at Grand and Chouteau Avenues will be required including, but not limited to, adding 2 dedicated southbound left turn lanes and a new northbound left turn lane. Additional widening, right of way dedication, and restriping will be required along Chouteau. Repaving and narrowing Spring is required and Gratiot will be repaved and straightened. New sidewalks will be provided along Iron Hill's impacted rights of way in addition to all internal roadways for maximum walkability. All sidewalks will be pedestrian friendly and include sufficient lighting. All roadway and sidewalk improvements will make it easier for residents and guests to patronize the variety of retail tenants on-site.
Parking for Iron Hill will be provided via 3 key components: 1) 1000+ space parking garage, 2) 200-300 surface parking spaces along internal streets as required by tenants, and 3) on-street parking along Chouteau and Spring Avenues,. Parking counts will exceed city requirements and meet market demands for all uses.
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^ I like the line in there essentially saying "we know we have parking out our wahoo and have to widen all these roads and stuff but we're still gonna call it TOD."
LOL. It's TOD because we says so!
What's the carbon footprint of building a 1000+ space parking garage?
What's the carbon footprint of building a 1000+ space parking garage?
Due to Iron Hill's proximity to the Metrolink Station on Grand, the development will encourage alternate modes of transportation by providing easy access to/from the station by various pedestrian links thus reducing the developments's carbon footprint. Iron Hill will need to meet vehicular access and parking requirements but will be viewed as a transit oriented development as a result of this linkage.
Good news
The proposed redevelopment will create an estimated 1065 fill-time jobs within the City of St. Louis, with an average annual wage of roughly $43,000.
Unpopular opinion, I honestly don't care how much parking this has and how much TIF it gets.
This will fill in a grassy corner with shiny new buildings and a lot of upgrades to the public infrastructure. It will also bring more tax revenue in for the city with the retail stores and restaurants which is far more than what that grassy lot is bringing in. Also, not everyone is going to use MetroLink or transit to get to this development, so ripping the parking space count is a bit laughable. Focus on the bigger picture, and that's what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.
I understand that some of you hate it for a number of reasons. However, a majority of people support this project. The ultimate test to how well this does will come when it is completed and open.
On another note, the widening of Grand and Chouteau is a bit of a overstep. They're wide enough. Just, repave and repaint the stripes on the road.
This will fill in a grassy corner with shiny new buildings and a lot of upgrades to the public infrastructure. It will also bring more tax revenue in for the city with the retail stores and restaurants which is far more than what that grassy lot is bringing in. Also, not everyone is going to use MetroLink or transit to get to this development, so ripping the parking space count is a bit laughable. Focus on the bigger picture, and that's what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.
I understand that some of you hate it for a number of reasons. However, a majority of people support this project. The ultimate test to how well this does will come when it is completed and open.
On another note, the widening of Grand and Chouteau is a bit of a overstep. They're wide enough. Just, repave and repaint the stripes on the road.
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I was thinking the same about the widening of Chouteau it’s definitely not needed a bit overkill. I’m all for this project and hope that it does become successful. Let me put it like this anything that will become a major boon to the city and the region is positive and will spur growth. Being a slow growth region should never allow us to deter good formidable developments as they’ll help propel us to eventual growth. Besides when you add Foundry Amory SLU Hospital and now IH will be 1.3 Billion dollars in investments and this doesn’t include all the other developments in close proximity.
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[quote="sc4mayor" post_id="316666" time="1581468241"]^ I'd be curious if if you have any research beyond "slow growth region" that says this project would be a failure. The job and population growth in these particular areas aren't a secret. The Central Corridor continues to boom, the regions major corporations and institutions continue to make billion dollar investments. Many of them (like a half a billion dollar hospital next door) are right around this area. 6,000 new jobs and over 400 new companies in Cortex alone in 13 years...aren't those the kinds of people and workers you're talking about?
I have a sneaking suspicion these developers have done quite a bit more research on what they think they can successfully build than most of us here have. Short of these broad brush "St. Louis can't have nice things" arguments, I don't see why more development in this area couldn't be successful. You talk about needing more people...leaving massive chunks of vacant and unproductive land laying around sure isn't going to drive growth...[/quote]
I think you misunderstand me. Admittedly, I didn’t elaborate, so it was easy to do.
St. Louis has an enormous number of nice things already, so, if we’re going to provide tax $$ to support a development, let’s be very very careful. The Armory and The Foundry are blocks way, haven’t even opened and both got tax $. Who knows if they’ll succeed, who knows if they’ll succeed at the expense of exiting developments. So, chill on the tax subsidy.
I also have to question the wisdom of the developers if they can only make this work with $75 million in tax $, especially in what many on this forum consider a hot area. At the same time, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if developers are inflating the demand numbers to justify the $75 million in tax $. That happens all the time
I have a sneaking suspicion these developers have done quite a bit more research on what they think they can successfully build than most of us here have. Short of these broad brush "St. Louis can't have nice things" arguments, I don't see why more development in this area couldn't be successful. You talk about needing more people...leaving massive chunks of vacant and unproductive land laying around sure isn't going to drive growth...[/quote]
I think you misunderstand me. Admittedly, I didn’t elaborate, so it was easy to do.
St. Louis has an enormous number of nice things already, so, if we’re going to provide tax $$ to support a development, let’s be very very careful. The Armory and The Foundry are blocks way, haven’t even opened and both got tax $. Who knows if they’ll succeed, who knows if they’ll succeed at the expense of exiting developments. So, chill on the tax subsidy.
I also have to question the wisdom of the developers if they can only make this work with $75 million in tax $, especially in what many on this forum consider a hot area. At the same time, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if developers are inflating the demand numbers to justify the $75 million in tax $. That happens all the time
^ I don’t disagree about the tax incentives. But I’m not sure how sitting around not doing anything to get this land back into productive use advances your stated goal of getting more people and jobs into the city.
This also isn’t the same thing as the Armory or Foundry. The primary component here (and to me the most important) is the ~500 apartments, not a food hall or a massive creative office space. Neither of which are really happening with Iron Hill. Sure, there will be office space and retail here but they’re not nearly the biggest component. Foundry isn’t planning 500 or so residential units...neither is the Armory. Iron Hill has a potential to bring something the other two don’t...hundreds of new residents to the area.
This also isn’t the same thing as the Armory or Foundry. The primary component here (and to me the most important) is the ~500 apartments, not a food hall or a massive creative office space. Neither of which are really happening with Iron Hill. Sure, there will be office space and retail here but they’re not nearly the biggest component. Foundry isn’t planning 500 or so residential units...neither is the Armory. Iron Hill has a potential to bring something the other two don’t...hundreds of new residents to the area.
[quote="sc4mayor" post_id="316695" time="1581484815"]^ Iron Hill has a potential to bring something the other two don’t...hundreds of new residents to the area.[/quote]
Love to see the numbers regarding the increase in residents in the central corridor compared to buildings/units that have come online in the past few years.
Even with an increase in central corridor residents, I suspect the supply has vastly exceeded demand. Hope I am wrong! So, I fear we're not growing the residential pie.....just moving regional pieces. People moving from downtown to CWE. S City to CWE. Soulard to downtown. etc. And, right now, I can't say people from St. Charles County are moving to the city in any meaningful numbers. So, I think using city tax $ to subsidize city residential developments is just terrible policy.
Lastly, I'm not advocating "sitting around not doing anything," just being very smart/strategic on the kinds of developments we subsidize and support. In 2020 STL, I don't believe in supply-side retail or commercial development. If STL builds it, I do not think *new* residents/workers will just come. We're not Dallas.
Love to see the numbers regarding the increase in residents in the central corridor compared to buildings/units that have come online in the past few years.
Even with an increase in central corridor residents, I suspect the supply has vastly exceeded demand. Hope I am wrong! So, I fear we're not growing the residential pie.....just moving regional pieces. People moving from downtown to CWE. S City to CWE. Soulard to downtown. etc. And, right now, I can't say people from St. Charles County are moving to the city in any meaningful numbers. So, I think using city tax $ to subsidize city residential developments is just terrible policy.
Lastly, I'm not advocating "sitting around not doing anything," just being very smart/strategic on the kinds of developments we subsidize and support. In 2020 STL, I don't believe in supply-side retail or commercial development. If STL builds it, I do not think *new* residents/workers will just come. We're not Dallas.
What is with those quotes, btw? apologies
I think movement in the city or region is not as common as transplants moving to urban developments in the central corridor. The city (particularly the central corridor) is probably the most transplant heavy place in the region. Somebody that moves for a university or Cortex job is more likely to choose the city than anybody else. Also I look at the development trend in the central corridor as trying to make the city more "sticky" for transplants and recent college graduates who would otherwise move to another town.soulardx wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020sc4mayor wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020^ Iron Hill has a potential to bring something the other two don’t...hundreds of new residents to the area.
Love to see the numbers regarding the increase in residents in the central corridor compared to buildings/units that have come online in the past few years.
Even with an increase in central corridor residents, I suspect the supply has vastly exceeded demand. Hope I am wrong! So, I fear we're not growing the residential pie.....just moving regional pieces. People moving from downtown to CWE. S City to CWE. Soulard to downtown. etc. And, right now, I can't say people from St. Charles County are moving to the city in any meaningful numbers. So, I think using city tax $ to subsidize city residential developments is just terrible policy.
Lastly, I'm not advocating "sitting around not doing anything," just being very smart/strategic on the kinds of developments we subsidize and support. In 2020 STL, I don't believe in supply-side retail or commercial development. If STL builds it, I do not think *new* residents/workers will just come. We're not Dallas.
^^ Any numbers to back those opinions up? If supply has already vastly exceeded demand as you claim, then why are any new apartments still being proposed and/or built anywhere in the Central Corridor? $70mil is a lot (too much) in incentives, but the total project is over $300 million. Why move forward at all if there is no demand as you claim?
Cortex is a tax subsidized commercial development and it has attracted startups and jobs to the area from outside of the region. Obviously Iron Hill won’t have the same effect, but the idea that STL can’t draw anything in from outside is ridiculous. I’m moving to STL in 4 weeks from KCMO. I have 2 other friends that made the same move last year. Anecdotal, sure. But some of us are coming from the outside and this pervasive attitude from the folks that live in St. Louis that it can’t support any new development is one of the biggest turn offs about moving to this city.
Also, I'm not sure what's up with the quoting...I'm not having any issues there. But am having issues with the random logouts again. So there could be some general site issues happening.
Cortex is a tax subsidized commercial development and it has attracted startups and jobs to the area from outside of the region. Obviously Iron Hill won’t have the same effect, but the idea that STL can’t draw anything in from outside is ridiculous. I’m moving to STL in 4 weeks from KCMO. I have 2 other friends that made the same move last year. Anecdotal, sure. But some of us are coming from the outside and this pervasive attitude from the folks that live in St. Louis that it can’t support any new development is one of the biggest turn offs about moving to this city.
Also, I'm not sure what's up with the quoting...I'm not having any issues there. But am having issues with the random logouts again. So there could be some general site issues happening.
sc4mayor wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020^^ Any numbers to back those opinions up? If supply has already vastly exceeded demand as you claim, then why are any new apartments still being proposed and/or built anywhere in the Central Corridor? $70mil is a lot (too much) in incentives, but the total project is over $300 million. Why move forward at all if there is no demand as you claim?
Cortex is a tax subsidized commercial development and it has attracted startups and jobs to the area from outside of the region. Obviously Iron Hill won’t have the same effect, but the idea that STL can’t draw anything in from outside is ridiculous. I’m moving to STL in 4 weeks from KCMO. I have 2 other friends that made the same move last year. Anecdotal, sure. But some of us are coming from the outside and this pervasive attitude from the folks that live in St. Louis that it can’t support any new development is one of the biggest turn offs about moving to this city.
Also, I'm not sure what's up with the quoting...I'm not having any issues there. But am having issues with the random logouts again. So there could be some general site issues happening.
nope, no numbers, so this entire conversation is mostly anecdotal. I'm also not saying that STL can't draw from outside STL, just that STL is not drawing from outside the region in a meaningful level to combat STL folks moving out of the region. the stagnant population (the only number I *do* know) says that quite clearly.
To Goat's point, the central corridor does draw transplants more than any other part.....totally agree there....but how many? 500, 1500, 5000, 10000? I don' t know. And, what's the net-net on transplants who are leaving? Also, i like your use of "sticky"...I think that has some merit.
So, back to my original statement that spurred this dialogue. Slow growth regions, more than any other region, should be super careful about the developments they subsidize with tax $. Iron Hill at Grand & Chouteau does not deserve $75MM.
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I'm disappointed you feel that way. This land is a lot more than a "grassy lot." St. Louis is an amazing city and doesn't need to beg to get what it wants. Developers are just so used to it that they expect it. I'd rather it remain an empty lot for a couple more years and actually get the best development proposal. The CWE waited, and they we were rewarded with One Hundred.chriss752 wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Unpopular opinion, I honestly don't care how much parking this has and how much TIF it gets.
This will fill in a grassy corner with shiny new buildings and a lot of upgrades to the public infrastructure. It will also bring more tax revenue in for the city with the retail stores and restaurants which is far more than what that grassy lot is bringing in.
This is one I'd be nervous about giving that large of a tax incentive out to. If the central corridor and the momentum behind Cortex, SLU, Foundry, etc is substantial enough to warrant a $300mm mixed use development then why does it have to be so heavily subsidized? I'm normally bullish on development projects, but frankly I have my doubts about this one living up to the rosy projections. Residential I could see being ok given the workforce in the area, but this site may struggle for office tenants and it definitely will struggle with retail.
I have concerns that the residential/office tax abatement game is going to play out similar to how it has in retail and is starting to in industrial markets. If there is no end in sight to handing out incentives it means that the supply will certainly outpace the demand. New buildings with tax abatements poach tenants from other buildings which struggle to fill space because there is too much inventory. If the region isn't growing then it can have ripple effects throughout the region
I have concerns that the residential/office tax abatement game is going to play out similar to how it has in retail and is starting to in industrial markets. If there is no end in sight to handing out incentives it means that the supply will certainly outpace the demand. New buildings with tax abatements poach tenants from other buildings which struggle to fill space because there is too much inventory. If the region isn't growing then it can have ripple effects throughout the region
Not that I disagree with your general theme here, but One Hundred got some pretty sweet incentives too.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020I'm disappointed you feel that way. This land is a lot more than a "grassy lot." St. Louis is an amazing city and doesn't need to beg to get what it wants. Developers are just so used to it that they expect it. I'd rather it remain an empty lot for a couple more years and actually get the best development proposal. The CWE waited, and they we were rewarded with One Hundred.chriss752 wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Unpopular opinion, I honestly don't care how much parking this has and how much TIF it gets.
This will fill in a grassy corner with shiny new buildings and a lot of upgrades to the public infrastructure. It will also bring more tax revenue in for the city with the retail stores and restaurants which is far more than what that grassy lot is bringing in.
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I think there are serious issues with Cullinan Properties essentially leading the master planning and development. (I realize Clayco/LJC were brought in for at least some of the design and planning.) In a perfect world, SLU would have taken the time to develop their own master plan for the area and issued RFPs for specific parcels, etc. This development is much more likely to be sterile and already requires massive subsidy due to SLU's lack of leadership here.
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Sure? I think its safe to assume that they'd bring in outside help for such any master planning project so its who knows. It is not worth speculating on imo.framer wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020^Hmmm...I'm not so sure I'd like any master plan SLU came up with.
What I'm really getting at is the lack of institutional leadership or vision. Its obviously easier for SLU to pass this project on to Cullinan but it gave up a lot as soon as that happened. The City turned over control of development with no real plan in place. And no, I do not think the Midtown 353 Redevelopment Plan counts. Edit: Not blaming the City solely - just wish there was more leadership in general but especially from SLU.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2020/02/12/city-board-pushes-back-on-80m-in-incentives-for.html
"...including adding a traffic signal at Grand Boulevard at the eastern entrance to Iron Hill that is "imperative" for Cullinan securing its undisclosed retail anchor."
Interesting.
"...including adding a traffic signal at Grand Boulevard at the eastern entrance to Iron Hill that is "imperative" for Cullinan securing its undisclosed retail anchor."
Interesting.
[quote="Timmy" post_id="316725" time="1581539213"][url=https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... s-for.html]https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... s-for.html[/url]
"...including adding a traffic signal at Grand Boulevard at the eastern entrance to Iron Hill that is "imperative" for Cullinan securing its undisclosed retail anchor."
Interesting.[/quote]
the more I read about this development the less I like it. 12% sales tax is absurd. $80MM in tax incentives is absurd.
go back to the drawing board Cullinan.
"...including adding a traffic signal at Grand Boulevard at the eastern entrance to Iron Hill that is "imperative" for Cullinan securing its undisclosed retail anchor."
Interesting.[/quote]
the more I read about this development the less I like it. 12% sales tax is absurd. $80MM in tax incentives is absurd.
go back to the drawing board Cullinan.
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I'm not opposed to nice incentive packages but as others have been saying, it needs to be a development worthy of incentives. If this project were proposed on the north riverfront, Kosciusko, Pruitt-Igoe, I would be supportive.jbacott wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Not that I disagree with your general theme here, but One Hundred got some pretty sweet incentives too.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020I'm disappointed you feel that way. This land is a lot more than a "grassy lot." St. Louis is an amazing city and doesn't need to beg to get what it wants. Developers are just so used to it that they expect it. I'd rather it remain an empty lot for a couple more years and actually get the best development proposal. The CWE waited, and they we were rewarded with One Hundred.chriss752 wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Unpopular opinion, I honestly don't care how much parking this has and how much TIF it gets.
This will fill in a grassy corner with shiny new buildings and a lot of upgrades to the public infrastructure. It will also bring more tax revenue in for the city with the retail stores and restaurants which is far more than what that grassy lot is bringing in.
I appreciate the developer's vision, but they've missed the mark.