If they actually built this, then sure I'd gladly accept it. But I fully expect it to get scaled down and value engineered drastically, making what does end up getting built to be quite disappointing.
Framer, I guess one of my gripes is the argument that there this nothing there now so why should it better connect or encourage connectivity with other futrue developments. When things do change in the area this development will do what it is intended and that is be an island to get people to drive into its big linear garage and not venture beyond the development itself. In other words, a Highland on steriods.
I think the outcome on the other side of Grand with Steelcote will be much more different, much more vibrant area and people will actually walk around.
I think the outcome on the other side of Grand with Steelcote will be much more different, much more vibrant area and people will actually walk around.
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That's the problem with several of these developments: Iron Hill, Armory, Steelcote - they are more or less islands and the development plans, as ambitious as they are, do nothing to change that. Part of it is the city's fault for not working with them to enhance connectivity, but the city really doesn't have the money for big public works projects that would change the status quo in that area anyways. I'm glad these projects are being built, I just question the wisdom of the developers who think these will be vibrant, active urban spaces when the design doesn't try to improve on the terrible infrastructure they've chosen to site their projects in.dredger wrote: Framer, I guess one of my gripes is the argument that there this nothing there now so why should it better connect or encourage connectivity with other futrue developments. When things do change in the area this development will do what it is intended and that is be an island to get people to drive into its big linear garage and not venture beyond the development itself. In other words, a Highland on steriods.
I think the outcome on the other side of Grand with Steelcote will be much more different, much more vibrant area and people will actually walk around.
^ thanks,
To me the one big change that would make a world a difference is somehow if they get from one linear parking garage with a big retainage wall by breaking into two with a connection to the street on the backside and therefore a direct connection to the future greenway. Just important a connection future development as well as wakable access to the neighbor on other side of Grand via a secondary street that goes under the viaduct. How do you do it? tough one as the grade changes significantly and therefore not simple as it appears in renderings.
To me the one big change that would make a world a difference is somehow if they get from one linear parking garage with a big retainage wall by breaking into two with a connection to the street on the backside and therefore a direct connection to the future greenway. Just important a connection future development as well as wakable access to the neighbor on other side of Grand via a secondary street that goes under the viaduct. How do you do it? tough one as the grade changes significantly and therefore not simple as it appears in renderings.
It isn't as dense or connected as it appears. I think many people are being dazzled by illusory renderings. Take the aerial rendering you posted for example:framer wrote: I really don't get all the griping about this project. It's a large, dense, mixed-use project in the heart of the City. Isn't this what we all want?
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Ignore the buildings on the NW and SE corners, as those are future phases which will inevitably change, and may not be realized in any case for a decade or more. And you can ignore that hotel rendering in the SW corner as well, since that entire corner will be developed by a separate hotel developer, assuming they even get an acceptable response to their hotel RFP. It could very well end up being a 5-story stud frame building like the aLoft hotel in Cortex. So what are you left with? A massive parking garage, a lot of low-rise buildings, and the apartment building. That apartment building is the only part of Phase 1 in this rendering which adds any density, and that certainly will be scaled down from this rendering too.
What is left is not dense at all. There is more green space, driveway, and parking than structures.
But...that is the problem this project was supposed to help solve. You are basically saying that Iron Hill can't be designed like it's part of a neighborhood, because there isn't a neighborhood there now.framer wrote: The thing is, there's nothing walkable about this area right now. There's no street grid. No retail. No residential. There's nothing but a large medical center. This development will be the first to actually add anything new to the mix and give people a reason to get out of their cars and walk around.
The primary objective of this project was ostensibly to help connect SLU North to SLU South, and to plant the seeds of a real neighborhood around the hospital and medical center campus, which ultimately would grow in every direction - outside the Iron Hill property line! - into something similar to the neighborhood around BJC and WashU Med School. Like the CWE, that neighborhood would then provide housing, hotel rooms, dining, entertainment, services, and transit to the staff, students, and visitors to the medical center.
The Iron Hill design does not help create such a neighborhood, it does the opposite. People will only "get out of their cars and walk around" once they have parked in Iron Hill's garage. And then, after they have shopped, eaten, and imbibed in Iron Hill's establishments, they will get back in their cars and drive home. They won't be exploring the neighborhood, not even once there is something to explore.
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^This. The rest is fine i think, maybe not the direction i would've hoped but way better than i had feared.dredger wrote:To me the one big change that would make a world a difference is somehow if they get from one linear parking garage with a big retainage wall by breaking into two with a connection to the street on the backside and therefore a direct connection to the future greenway.
^ If I'm looking at this rendering of the proposed Chouteau Greenway for this area it looks like it will shoot right across Spring Avenue, granted this is just a potential concept. Either way, that garage they currently have planned along Graitot isn't going to preclude this development from connecting to the greenway in the future.
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Regardless of what happens with Iron Hill, this area likely isn't ever going to be as dense or developed as BJC/WashU as some have suggested. Cortex may have been a rundown industrial area before it started to take off, but BJC/WashU didn't have near as much permanent infrastructure to deal with. Multiple railroads, switching yards, electric utilities, the double decked interstate, etc. These are things that are not easily moved, and I'd bet by last dollar that MoDOT, Ameren, and UP (or whoever those lines and yards belong to) won't be much interested in moving any of it.
Now, there is definitely some potential between the Iron Hill site and the half of dozen or so blocks on the east side of Grand. Getting Papin reconnected to Grand would go a long way and could provide a slightly reconnected grid and provide a more direct route from Steelcote into Iron Hill. But even if we somehow ended up with a new walkable grid between say Spring and Compton it'd still be hemmed in by railroads to the west and north and the SLU Hospital super blocks to the south. And all of this assumes the many currently existing industrial businesses are just going to pick up and leave...that's not likely to be the case either, at least not in the near term.
There is nothing wrong with demanding better from Iron Hill, and it could be better. I think we're all in agreement we'd like to see a smaller garage, a more traditional grid, and maybe a little more height in the middle too. But if we're just going to sit back and wait for a development that is absolutely perfect and fixes the inherent connectivity issues that are most likely always going to be an obstacle in this area, then we're going to be waiting for a long, long time. Hopefully we'll see some improvement with Iron Hill as it moves through the planning process, but even if what we've seen so far is what we end up getting, I won't be losing any sleep over it.
Regardless of what happens with Iron Hill, this area likely isn't ever going to be as dense or developed as BJC/WashU as some have suggested. Cortex may have been a rundown industrial area before it started to take off, but BJC/WashU didn't have near as much permanent infrastructure to deal with. Multiple railroads, switching yards, electric utilities, the double decked interstate, etc. These are things that are not easily moved, and I'd bet by last dollar that MoDOT, Ameren, and UP (or whoever those lines and yards belong to) won't be much interested in moving any of it.
Now, there is definitely some potential between the Iron Hill site and the half of dozen or so blocks on the east side of Grand. Getting Papin reconnected to Grand would go a long way and could provide a slightly reconnected grid and provide a more direct route from Steelcote into Iron Hill. But even if we somehow ended up with a new walkable grid between say Spring and Compton it'd still be hemmed in by railroads to the west and north and the SLU Hospital super blocks to the south. And all of this assumes the many currently existing industrial businesses are just going to pick up and leave...that's not likely to be the case either, at least not in the near term.
There is nothing wrong with demanding better from Iron Hill, and it could be better. I think we're all in agreement we'd like to see a smaller garage, a more traditional grid, and maybe a little more height in the middle too. But if we're just going to sit back and wait for a development that is absolutely perfect and fixes the inherent connectivity issues that are most likely always going to be an obstacle in this area, then we're going to be waiting for a long, long time. Hopefully we'll see some improvement with Iron Hill as it moves through the planning process, but even if what we've seen so far is what we end up getting, I won't be losing any sleep over it.
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I thought SLU was trying to get development rights for this area, as Cortex was granted over its district. That's how they get all the industrial to move. Different story for the utilities and public infrastructure.sc4mayor wrote: ^ If I'm looking at this rendering of the proposed Chouteau Greenway for this area it looks like it will shoot right across Spring Avenue, granted this is just a potential concept. Either way, that garage they currently have planned along Graitot isn't going to preclude this development from connecting to the greenway in the future.
Regardless of what happens with Iron Hill, this area likely isn't ever going to be as dense or developed as BJC/WashU as some have suggested. Cortex may have been a rundown industrial area before it started to take off, but BJC/WashU didn't have near as much permanent infrastructure to deal with. Multiple railroads, switching yards, electric utilities, the double decked interstate, etc. These are things that are not easily moved, and I'd bet by last dollar that MoDOT, Ameren, and UP (or whoever those lines and yards belong to) won't be much interested in moving any of it.
Now, there is definitely some potential between the Iron Hill site and the half of dozen or so blocks on the east side of Grand. Getting Papin reconnected to Grand would go a long way and could provide a slightly reconnected grid and provide a more direct route from Steelcote into Iron Hill. But even if we somehow ended up with a new walkable grid between say Spring and Compton it'd still be hemmed in by railroads to the west and north and the SLU Hospital super blocks to the south. And all of this assumes the many currently existing industrial businesses are just going to pick up and leave...that's not likely to be the case either, at least not in the near term.
There is nothing wrong with demanding better from Iron Hill, and it could be better. I think we're all in agreement we'd like to see a smaller garage, a more traditional grid, and maybe a little more height in the middle too. But if we're just going to sit back and wait for a development that is absolutely perfect and fixes the inherent connectivity issues that are most likely always going to be an obstacle in this area, then we're going to be waiting for a long, long time. Hopefully we'll see some improvement with Iron Hill as it moves through the planning process, but even if what we've seen so far is what we end up getting, I won't be losing any sleep over it.
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Will the industrial stay in the city if you force them out? What keeps them from going to the County - or worse?
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If it comes to that point, eminent domain negotiations often include relocation assistance, especially if its a use or business that city govt. wants to see remain in the city. But the replacement uses will be higher and better from a tax base perspective, which justifies the granting of eminent domain/development rights in the first place.
^ SLU already has a Chapter 353 agreement that blighted the area. They have the right to grant incentives to developers that want to build in that area. Having said that simply forcing all those industrial business to move isn't going to be an easy task. I'm not sure whether or not that 353 agreement gives SLU the right to eminent domain. If it does, those business have to be fairly compensated to be made to move. Does SLU have enough cash on hand to buy out and relocate all those businesses? My guess is probably not. If this area really explodes, many of them would likely leave on their own...but we're probably talking decades before there is any real density around here, even if Iron Hill gets a full build out.
As far as utilities and infrastructure (railroads are mostly private, not public) those aren't going anywhere. Within the last several years MoDOT completed the seismic retrofit on the double decked section of 40/64 as well, that thing will be there at the very least another 50-60 years. MetroLink couldn't be shifted without relocating the Grand Station, a nonstarter when factoring in the 70 Grand bus connection up top. One potential positive I noticed though is that based on the rendering Framer showed it looks like the east-west cross street through Iron Hill lines up pretty well should someone want to connect Papin to it on the east side of Grand if Steelcote gets quite a bit larger.
As far as utilities and infrastructure (railroads are mostly private, not public) those aren't going anywhere. Within the last several years MoDOT completed the seismic retrofit on the double decked section of 40/64 as well, that thing will be there at the very least another 50-60 years. MetroLink couldn't be shifted without relocating the Grand Station, a nonstarter when factoring in the 70 Grand bus connection up top. One potential positive I noticed though is that based on the rendering Framer showed it looks like the east-west cross street through Iron Hill lines up pretty well should someone want to connect Papin to it on the east side of Grand if Steelcote gets quite a bit larger.
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I think we're talking about the same industrial sites - the ones to the west of the SLU campus? Either way they'll have to go, and it won't be hard to get them to as long as SLU has eminent domain rights. I would bet they have a little slush fund ready to pay market value for a number of those buildings (which won't be exorbitant if they can also have the property condemned). SLU also has in-house legal staff to combat any resistance, which those tool and die/mechanical shops don't have.
No, the ones I'm talking about are east of Grand Boulevard, surrounding Steelcote (basically between Grand and Compton and south of the railroad). That area could be made into a nice walkable area, combined with Iron Hill if Papin is ever reconnected to Grand. West of Spring (the west edge of Iron Hill) is Rush Truck Center and then the railroad lines. The Chapter 353 agreement doesn't cover anything on the opposite side of those lines or anything west of 39th Street. It also doesn't cover anything east of Compton.
I don't know whether or not SLU has eminent domain powers, so I'm going to end that part of the discussion right there, cause we're starting to get off topic here. I would really hope that SLU doesn't just buy them up and clear them and sit on the land either, as we've seen that movie before too. If a worthy plan is presented to fill some of those lots, then SLU and their developer partner should attempt to reach an agreement to move any business that might be in the way. But we're not there yet.
I don't know whether or not SLU has eminent domain powers, so I'm going to end that part of the discussion right there, cause we're starting to get off topic here. I would really hope that SLU doesn't just buy them up and clear them and sit on the land either, as we've seen that movie before too. If a worthy plan is presented to fill some of those lots, then SLU and their developer partner should attempt to reach an agreement to move any business that might be in the way. But we're not there yet.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the scale of this rendering is way off. Everything seems to be at least 25% taller than it would be in reality. For context, Grand Avenue is 80 feet wide, including sidewalks...framer wrote: I really don't get all the griping about this project. It's a large, dense, mixed-use project in the heart of the City. Isn't this what we all want?
The thing is, there's nothing walkable about this area right now. There's no street grid. No retail. No residential. There's nothing but a large medical center. This development will be the first to actually add anything new to the mix and give people a reason to get out of their cars and walk around.
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They don't have eminent domain rights. And for the record, it is SLU and SSM Healthcare which formed the 353. The St. Louis Midtown Redevelopment Corporation is the entity that oversees the redevelopment plan for the area. They review and approve plans, form redevelopment agreements, negotiate tax abatement, etc., basically everything the city would normally do, minus eminent domain.JacksonPolyp wrote: I think we're talking about the same industrial sites - the ones to the west of the SLU campus? Either way they'll have to go, and it won't be hard to get them to as long as SLU has eminent domain rights. I would bet they have a little slush fund ready to pay market value for a number of those buildings (which won't be exorbitant if they can also have the property condemned). SLU also has in-house legal staff to combat any resistance, which those tool and die/mechanical shops don't have.
These buildings will have a decent height to them. They do not need to be super tall. These will fill in this area quite nicely. Walkability will increase over time and all the developments will help this out. It will take time.
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I do not get the negativity surrounding this project. If fully built out this project will do wonders for the area.
And just to be clear, the developers are fully aware of the Chouteau Greenway, and have specifically said that they do intend to establish connections with it.
Its the difference between good enough and great. Likely the difference between becoming outdated in a generation or enduring for the next 100 years.goat314 wrote: I do not get the negativity surrounding this project. If fully built out this project will do wonders for the area.
And, as Ive said before, especially since the public is funding a chunk of this with tax subsidy, we should be pushing for a project that gets it right on all levels - pedestrian scale and access, granularity, connected street grid, diversity of housing, retail and transportation etc
They have a website, apparently. St. Louis Midtown Redevelopment CorporationJacksonPolyp wrote: Good to know, thanks.
One other interesting power that they have is that if you own any property in the redevelopment area, they must approve any alteration (that would include new construction, obviously), or any demolition. So, they may not be able to seize your property through eminent domain, but they could ultimately force owners to sell by making it impossible to rehab or redevelop it if they don't like your plans.
And the flipside is that they can approve any demolition in the redevelopment area without going through the CRO or preservation board. One hopes that that would not include buildings on the National Register, but I am not optimistic.
Lol, that perspective makes the scale mistake (or is it?) even more glaring. That 4 story office building on the corner of Grand and Chouteau would have to be at least 90' tall. That would be one hell of a floor-to-floor height. Not to mention that this shows the apartment building being built over and across Gratiot Street, and on Corrigan's property...chriss752 wrote: These buildings will have a decent height to them. They do not need to be super tall. These will fill in this area quite nicely. Walkability will increase over time and all the developments will help this out. It will take time.
Of course they say that. But where? How? How much will they commit to investing in it? I mean, painting some bike lanes down Spring Street would "establish connections" (assuming there will be something at the north end to connect with), but I think most here expect a bit more of an effort than that.framer wrote: And just to be clear, the developers are fully aware of the Chouteau Greenway, and have specifically said that they do intend to establish connections with it.
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There must be some kind of spatial disturbance on that corner. All of the renderings of the soccer stadium that guy wanted to put in looked proportionally wrong as well.