The North-South line is only dead in Metro's eyes. We will still get some semblance of it, but it will be done through TDDs like the Kansas City project. SLDC is working with the city to build it out. The city was all geeked up when Prop A passed (making TOD plans and doing studies), but once the county offered to pay off the cross county bounds over the next decade, the city's dream of N-S transit quickly got deflated. Westport will likely break ground after the last payment is made sometime in the 2020s. The city will finish phase 1 of the St. Louis streetcar by the end of this decade and move on to future phases as other parts of the city yearn to be part of the process. In the long run that will be the best strategy for the city, but the region is still missing a great opportunity with a completely built out N-S Metrolink line.
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From what I noticed, apparently thousands of people want to work there. 
Interesting theory.goat314 wrote:Ok....so here is what I've been told from a few sources.
1. County is going to get Westport in exchange for paying off Metro's Cross County debt.
If it's true, I'm for it. I'd also support Metrolink to Edwardsville, O'Fallon, or Collinsville. I decided a while ago that any Metrolink is good Metrolink (I mean Metrolink in its current fully independent right-of-way form). It's far from ideal, but it will add to ridership and add to the overall utility of the system. It will even be good for downtown and the central corridor (gasp!). No, it won't be a huge boon for density, preservation, and walkability, but if it will appease the County and give them their Prop A prize then that's fine. Go ahead and get it over with and in the meantime continue to build the system, encourage TOD, and get people on train. It's a hell of a lot better than the BRT crap they've been proposing.
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Agree 100% The county gov does not want metro-link and the county voter sure as hell don't. I say lets build a north-south street car in the city. If phase one is built then a part of the north south would already be there too.robertn42 wrote:^So screw Metro then. Let's connect the city with more lines through a cost effective streetcar. We don't have to wait for the county. If we make the city more desirable, everything else will fall into place.
1. I just laid out to you that the county wants Westport, so to say the county doesn't is incorrect. The county does want Metrolink, just not the line that will be beneficial to the city.Redbrickcity wrote:Agree 100% The county gov does not want metro-link and the county voter sure as hell don't. I say lets build a north-south street car in the city. If phase one is built then a part of the north south would already be there too.robertn42 wrote:^So screw Metro then. Let's connect the city with more lines through a cost effective streetcar. We don't have to wait for the county. If we make the city more desirable, everything else will fall into place.
2. The county voters do want Metrolink that's why they passed Prop A. The problem is that the city also wants Metrolink, but we have a fractured political and governmental system. If the city is part of the county we probably would have built Metrolink generations ago, the fractured nature of the region is why St. Louis passed on subways/elevated rail etc. more than a couple of times throughout its 250 year history. A north-south line would be a no brainer in a combine city/county.
3. The city realizes that Metro has abandoned them and is putting its energy behind the streetcar. The streetcar is phase 1 of the North-South line. It will incrementally expand into the full North-South line or into wherever there is support for a streetcar TDD in the city. So potentially, some of the cool neighborhoods like the FPSE, Tower Grove, Soulard could by in to have their own little extensions if the agree to join the taxing district, which could create a really cool system. SLDC even mentioned that the line would probably be a modern streetcar during the N-S line TOD study. They kind of figured then that Metro wasn't going to build the line after the county passed Prop A. Part of the deal was that the county will get Westport if they use Prop A money to pay off Cross County bond and straighten up Metro's books.
4. We will probably see St. Louis develop a streetcar taxing district like Kansas City. The lines can possibly be operated by Metro, but the city will be responsible for capital expenditures.
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^that sounds like a credible assessment. But if it's true WHY wasn't BRT considered for south city. A brt on Gravois would make a lot of sense. As proposed south side gets jack.
When I went to the discussions on BRT route when they were down selecting the presenter said that only the Northside was consider but 'there were other things in the works for the southside' maybe he has no more real knowledge than you but it definitely seemed like an allusion to a southside Metrolink.
Also they JUST built a damn trail On What would be ROW for the Metrolink. Now they are going to rip it up?
My prediction is southside is next expansion many year from now, or possibly both southside and Westport simultaneously. With BRT for CHesterfield (dumb) and Northside.
When I went to the discussions on BRT route when they were down selecting the presenter said that only the Northside was consider but 'there were other things in the works for the southside' maybe he has no more real knowledge than you but it definitely seemed like an allusion to a southside Metrolink.
Also they JUST built a damn trail On What would be ROW for the Metrolink. Now they are going to rip it up?
My prediction is southside is next expansion many year from now, or possibly both southside and Westport simultaneously. With BRT for CHesterfield (dumb) and Northside.
All of this info makes my head spin. It's hard to believe (and yet also so easy) how screwed up the planning is in the region.
How much cheaper are street car systems than light rail or true BRT really? If the city is planning to do it's own thing with street cars, why don't we just tell Metro & the county to screw off and build our own light rail?
Street cars are cool, but they're not true light rail. If we're going to invest hundreds of millions, why not do it big (& fast)?
I'll use this opportunity to present another call to action to join our urban transit group. Next meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, June 25 at 5:45 PM at the Flying Saucer downtown.
How much cheaper are street car systems than light rail or true BRT really? If the city is planning to do it's own thing with street cars, why don't we just tell Metro & the county to screw off and build our own light rail?
Street cars are cool, but they're not true light rail. If we're going to invest hundreds of millions, why not do it big (& fast)?
I'll use this opportunity to present another call to action to join our urban transit group. Next meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, June 25 at 5:45 PM at the Flying Saucer downtown.
I don't think an exclusive Southside line is in the works, that would cause a political sh*t storm and the county doesn't want to fund it. I've been told that the St. Louis Streetcar is phase I of the N-S line. Phase II would likely have a terminus at Natural Bridge/Kingshighway and Jefferson/Cherokee. Neighborhoods that buy in will get their expansion. If all the neighborhoods along Gravois buy in to a streetcar, we may see one down Gravois. That is the approach the city is taking. A major N-S build out from 270 to 270 is just not going to happen in the near term. The city will not see any Metrolink expansion until Westport is built.STLEnginerd wrote:^that sounds like a credible assessment. But if it's true WHY wasn't BRT considered for south city. A brt on Gravois would make a lot of sense. As proposed south side gets jack.
When I went to the discussions on BRT route when they were down selecting the presenter said that only the Northside was consider but 'there were other things in the works for the southside' maybe he has no more real knowledge than you but it definitely seemed like an allusion to a southside Metrolink.
Also they JUST built a damn trail On What would be ROW for the Metrolink. Now they are going to rip it up?
My prediction is southside is next expansion many year from now, or possibly both southside and Westport simultaneously. With BRT for CHesterfield (dumb) and Northside.
The city finds the streetcar attractive, because it can be slowly expanded as funds become available. Metrolink expansions are usually $Billion dollar deals at a time. Metrolink lines also have to be "regional" meaning the County has to benefit (because they bring most of the money).
The County wants Westport, that's pretty much it. The trail ROW is peanuts when your talking about a $Billion dollar piece of infrastructure going in. They will likely rip it up and rebuild it or maybe a I-170 rebuild would dedicate a ROW for the future Metro expansion. I don't know at this point, that's why they are currently funding the feasibility study and EIS for Westport to get specifics.
goat314 wrote:I don't think an exclusive Southside line is in the works, that would cause a political sh*t storm with North city and the county doesn't want to fund it. I've been told that the St. Louis Streetcar is phase I of the N-S line. Phase II would likely have a terminus at Natural Bridge/Kingshighway and Jefferson/Cherokee. Neighborhoods that buy in will get their expansion. If all the neighborhoods along Gravois buy in to a streetcar, we may see one down Gravois. That is the approach the city is taking. A major N-S build out from 270 to 270 is just not going to happen in the near term. The city will not see any Metrolink expansion until Westport is built.STLEnginerd wrote:^that sounds like a credible assessment. But if it's true WHY wasn't BRT considered for south city. A brt on Gravois would make a lot of sense. As proposed south side gets jack.
When I went to the discussions on BRT route when they were down selecting the presenter said that only the Northside was consider but 'there were other things in the works for the southside' maybe he has no more real knowledge than you but it definitely seemed like an allusion to a southside Metrolink.
Also they JUST built a damn trail On What would be ROW for the Metrolink. Now they are going to rip it up?
My prediction is southside is next expansion many year from now, or possibly both southside and Westport simultaneously. With BRT for CHesterfield (dumb) and Northside.
The city finds the streetcar attractive, because it can be slowly expanded as funds become available. Metrolink expansions are usually $Billion dollar deals at a time. Metrolink lines also have to be "regional" meaning the County has to benefit (because they bring most of the money).
The County wants Westport, that's pretty much it. The trail ROW is peanuts when your talking about a $Billion dollar piece of infrastructure going in. They will likely rip it up and rebuild it or maybe a I-170 rebuild would dedicate a ROW for the future Metro expansion. I don't know at this point, that's why they are currently funding the feasibility study and EIS for Westport to get specifics.
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To me a street car can be just as economical as a light rail and i'll agree with Goat that i couldn't see the city getting an actual expansion of metro link until the expansion out to west port is completed if and when that will happen... I rather see a street car get built now than wait decades for a possible another expansion of metro link in the city to happen particularly N/S line we'd be way behind many other cities... I find the street car to be more achievable and sexy..
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You may be right but the St. Louis streetcar as currently conceived is the exact opposite of a NS line. It's route is currently planned on Olive which is EW with a paltry spur going To OLd North. Even with that the southside is left In the cold. If the proposal had been a streetcar from Old North to Soulard, or if there had been a credible proposal for BRT on the southside I would bet you were right. But given the complete lack of attention I have to think a southside line proposal is likely next. If BRT proves itself viable, It will probably be BRT instead of LRT.
Also if Westport line is in anyway imminent it is being kept VERY quiet at the municipal level. As I haven't heard any rumblings. Maybe that doesn't say much as I'm not privy to every proposal that comes through, but I'd say Olivette doesn't seem to be planning with transit in mind. If the Westport line is the next to be proposed you'd think someone would slip word to the city leadership so that appropriate planning and zoning could begin.
And the whole debate about choice riders is silly. Choice means that they will choose the most convenient route to get where they want to go. Which means they will probably choose the car. Therefore the Metrolink would be under utilized. I have to assume county leadership gets that.
And a streetcar is LRT except slower with more stops. It is marginally cheaper. BRT on the other hand is MUCH cheaper to implement.
Also if Westport line is in anyway imminent it is being kept VERY quiet at the municipal level. As I haven't heard any rumblings. Maybe that doesn't say much as I'm not privy to every proposal that comes through, but I'd say Olivette doesn't seem to be planning with transit in mind. If the Westport line is the next to be proposed you'd think someone would slip word to the city leadership so that appropriate planning and zoning could begin.
And the whole debate about choice riders is silly. Choice means that they will choose the most convenient route to get where they want to go. Which means they will probably choose the car. Therefore the Metrolink would be under utilized. I have to assume county leadership gets that.
And a streetcar is LRT except slower with more stops. It is marginally cheaper. BRT on the other hand is MUCH cheaper to implement.
I would hope that there would be some sort of planning for all of that which includes some sort of community input. There are other ways to raise capital than through TDD. My worry is that if you just use TDD as a funding mechanism, the poorer areas of the city are going to lose out. I think using some sort of combination of cigarette/alcohol/hotel/tourism tax in the city to raise capital funds with a TDD to provide maintenance funds may be feasible.I don't think an exclusive Southside line is in the works, that would cause a political sh*t storm and the county doesn't want to fund it. I've been told that the St. Louis Streetcar is phase I of the N-S line. Phase II would likely have a terminus at Natural Bridge/Kingshighway and Jefferson/Cherokee. Neighborhoods that buy in will get their expansion. If all the neighborhoods along Gravois buy in to a streetcar, we may see one down Gravois. That is the approach the city is taking. A major N-S build out from 270 to 270 is just not going to happen in the near term. The city will not see any Metrolink expansion until Westport is built.
If the city's approach is just to build it as neighborhoods want it, that's BS. The routes will follow the money and it's the same approach as Metro to transit. If the city gets serious about transit, it needs to be planned out (both geographically and financially) with community input. That way all citizen's are on the same page from the beginning and no one is left out. If we want to truly connect neighborhoods, we have to include all neighborhoods in the discussion.
Read my post about it.STLEnginerd wrote:You may be right but the St. Louis streetcar as currently conceived is the exact opposite of a NS line. It's route is currently planned on Olive which is EW with a paltry spur going To OLd North. Even with that the southside is left In the cold. If the proposal had been a streetcar from Old North to Soulard, or if there had been a credible proposal for BRT on the southside I would bet you were right. But given the complete lack of attention I have to think a southside line proposal is likely next. If BRT proves itself viable, It will probably be BRT instead of LRT.
Also if Westport line is in anyway imminent it is being kept VERY quiet at the municipal level. As I haven't heard any rumblings. Maybe that doesn't say much as I'm not privy to every proposal that comes through, but I'd say Olivette doesn't seem to be planning with transit in mind. If the Westport line is the next to be proposed you'd think someone would slip word to the city leadership so that appropriate planning and zoning could begin.
And the whole debate about choice riders is silly. Choice means that they will choose the most convenient route to get where they want to go. Which means they will probably choose the car. Therefore the Metrolink would be under utilized. I have to assume county leadership gets that.
And a streetcar is LRT except slower with more stops. It is marginally cheaper. BRT on the other hand is MUCH cheaper to implement.
Westport is next, still about 10 years out before ground breaking but its next. Dooley practically went to war with Slay at the EW-Gateway planning meeting when the city wanted to get the St. Louis Streetcar. He said something like "I hope there will be no Metro money going towards this streetcar, because Westport is still the county's #1 transit priority". I was at a County Planning meeting in Clayton a couple years back and Mike Jones ( a top official in St. Louis County) pulled out a map clearing showing the Daniel Boone line as a top priority, It has been dubbed the Green Line. A source I have a Metro pretty much confirms this. On twitter recently, MoDOT-St. Louis said that funding for the planning/EIS for Westport will be in Amendment 7 further confirming what I have been hearing for a long time. The city is serious about transit, but the region doesn't take the city's priorities serious. No, the southside will not get Metrolink in the next 20-30 years, but there is a strong chance we will have a functioning city streetcar network by that time (possibly even operated by Metro) that ties into the Metrolink spine, making it unnecessary when N-S comes up again. A lot of the discourse is driven by the idea that Metrolink is somewhat of a commuter system too. Notice much of the focus of light rail in St. Louis about connecting to "jobs" or "park and ride" lots for big events in the city. The city is really the only area seriously thinking of Metrolink as a catalyst for TOD and that is a rather recent aberration. Add to the fact that Monsanto, Danforth, Westport, U-City, Clayton, and YES! Olivette are pushing for this. The city had no chance.
A few other quick points.
1) Get the N-S Metrolink out of your head its done, the St. Louis Streetcar is the future. Phase II of the streetcar will go further south and north to mimic N-S line. The city is trying to secure funding for future studies, engineering, and operations through the Amendment 7.
2) Olivette and U-City just finished a I-170/Olive corridor redevelopment plan. Ray Lai (a top planner for U-City) told me first hand years ago that Metro will have a station at Olive (Before prop A passed), but I wasn't able to piece it together until recent conversations about transportation.
3) St. Louis County has a "we do what we want to do with our money" mentality. I found out recently that Metro does not operate like a slush fund. Meaning the best projects in the whole Metro district gets picked. There is City money, County money, and Metro East money. That's why we are hearing a lot of talk about the city buying its portion of the BRT and not the region. Metro is a regional agency but without the merger of city and county, decisions will be politically dominated by the largest donor (the county). That is why Metro feels obligated to have bus service in areas that don't really even need it or want it, instead of increasing frequency on certain routes in the urban core. Its about us vs. them. Unfortunately, the city still wants to play paddy cake with county and believe this regionalism crap.
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^ I don't doubt that what you lay out here is the intentions of the county administration, but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves on a Green Line being a done deal. Some serious considerations that will arise if plans become more precise and public are:
- strong financial hurdles especially with dubious chances for Federal New Starts funding
- strong public opposition from County residents
Trying to pursue a largely self-funded Green Line in a manner that is a repeat of the Cross-Country Extension is going to be a huge political football that could be crushed by opposition. Political winds change and I'll bet Charlie Dooley and Company won't be in office by time this might get close to being funded.
- strong financial hurdles especially with dubious chances for Federal New Starts funding
- strong public opposition from County residents
Trying to pursue a largely self-funded Green Line in a manner that is a repeat of the Cross-Country Extension is going to be a huge political football that could be crushed by opposition. Political winds change and I'll bet Charlie Dooley and Company won't be in office by time this might get close to being funded.
I'd like to get some clarification on LRT vs. BRT vs. Streetcar if anyone feels confident enough to provide some details.
These are my main questions when I try to determine what I'd most desire as well as what I'd be happy to settle for.
• What is the average/typical cost per mile for each mode?
• Does building one make it in anyway cheaper and/or easier to eventually upgrade to another level?
• What would a normal amount of stops per mile for each mode be?
• What is the average speed each mode would travel (or what is a better indicate or travel time/efficiency)?
• If we have a multi-modal system in the region, is there a comparison anywhere else in the country?*
To elaborate on that last question, I'm specifically thinking of Chicago where they have the Metra, which is the regional commuter rail, and they have CTA/the "L" (or "El" for elevated) lines.
Under a scenario where we see Metro continue to operate in a regional mode, would it be comparable to Chicago's Metra commuter rail as far as efficiency? And if the city builds out a street car network, would it be comparable to the "L," or would it run significantly slower because one is LRT and the street cars or not?
My biggest worry about going full-fledged street car is that it won't really operate in a time efficient manner so as to be more convenient than driving, but may still cost us a great deal of money.
These are my main questions when I try to determine what I'd most desire as well as what I'd be happy to settle for.
• What is the average/typical cost per mile for each mode?
• Does building one make it in anyway cheaper and/or easier to eventually upgrade to another level?
• What would a normal amount of stops per mile for each mode be?
• What is the average speed each mode would travel (or what is a better indicate or travel time/efficiency)?
• If we have a multi-modal system in the region, is there a comparison anywhere else in the country?*
To elaborate on that last question, I'm specifically thinking of Chicago where they have the Metra, which is the regional commuter rail, and they have CTA/the "L" (or "El" for elevated) lines.
Under a scenario where we see Metro continue to operate in a regional mode, would it be comparable to Chicago's Metra commuter rail as far as efficiency? And if the city builds out a street car network, would it be comparable to the "L," or would it run significantly slower because one is LRT and the street cars or not?
My biggest worry about going full-fledged street car is that it won't really operate in a time efficient manner so as to be more convenient than driving, but may still cost us a great deal of money.
I hope you are right, but to underestimate the power of big corporations like Monsanto and Danforth. I also wouldn't be surprised if it is over-engineered and bonded. Cross County was a disaster for the public, but a big money maker for local contractors, engineers, construction, unions etc.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I don't doubt that what you lay out here is the intentions of the county administration, but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves on a Green Line being a done deal. Some serious considerations that will arise if plans become more precise and public are:
- strong financial hurdles especially with dubious chances for Federal New Starts funding
- strong public opposition from County residents
Trying to pursue a largely self-funded Green Line in a manner that is a repeat of the Cross-Country Extension is going to be a huge political football that could be crushed by opposition. Political winds change and I'll bet Charlie Dooley and Company won't be in office by time this might get close to being funded.
It definitely isn't one of the better projects for federal competition, but if a Monsanto funded senator....ahem McCaskill...ahem Blunt signs off on it, its a done deal. If local congressmen get behind it, we are really in trouble. They will just tout job creation and a lot of the other things will go out the window. If Monsanto donates say $50 million to the cause its definitely a done deal.
This project also has little to do with Dooley, this is a long range plan that will out live Dooley or Stenger.
I hope there is enough outrage and a North-South line is picked, but that will probably get squashed because of the price to make it political viable. A North-South line HAS TO go from 270 to 270. That's probably a $1.5-2.0 Billion dollar project. A lot to swallow. Even though the feds could put up a $Billion, there would have to be broad support from city and county.
The way its looking on my end.
1. Westport and a St. Louis Streetcar System (most likely)
2. A St. Louis Streetcar System and BRT (moderate chance)
3. A fully built out North-South line and central corridor St. Louis Streetcar (lowest chance)
We are getting the streetcar no matter what, so anything else is just icing on the cake.
Regional leaders definitely look at Metro as more of a commuter system. It will likely evolve over time into something that produces TODs and urban living in the suburbs etc. but as of now havent really grasp that concept yet.jstriebel wrote:I'd like to get some clarification on LRT vs. BRT vs. Streetcar if anyone feels confident enough to provide some details.
These are my main questions when I try to determine what I'd most desire as well as what I'd be happy to settle for.
• What is the average/typical cost per mile for each mode?
• Does building one make it in anyway cheaper and/or easier to eventually upgrade to another level?
• What would a normal amount of stops per mile for each mode be?
• What is the average speed each mode would travel (or what is a better indicate or travel time/efficiency)?
• If we have a multi-modal system in the region, is there a comparison anywhere else in the country?*
To elaborate on that last question, I'm specifically thinking of Chicago where they have the Metra, which is the regional commuter rail, and they have CTA/the "L" (or "El" for elevated) lines.
Under a scenario where we see Metro continue to operate in a regional mode, would it be comparable to Chicago's Metra commuter rail as far as efficiency? And if the city builds out a street car network, would it be comparable to the "L," or would it run significantly slower because one is LRT and the street cars or not?
My biggest worry about going full-fledged street car is that it won't really operate in a time efficient manner so as to be more convenient than driving, but may still cost us a great deal of money.
The city however looks at transit a little different. The city views both Metrolink and a potential streetcar as a way to stabilize neighborhoods, spur development, increase connectivity etc. Its less about speed and more about quality of life and choice.
I also wouldn't worry about speed with streetcars or comparing it to the EL. The scale of St. Louis is just not comparable to Chicago. A streetcar with dedicated lanes could probably go through the city of St. Louis faster than a grade separated EL could travel through Chicago. Chicago is just that massive.
Definitely true, and that makes sense. I just hope the streetcar system would be efficient enough to be effective as transit for those need it and those who would like a reason to use it over a car.
I guess it may really come down to the set up of each line. With enough dedicated lanes, it should run at a decent clip.
I guess it may really come down to the set up of each line. With enough dedicated lanes, it should run at a decent clip.
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If so then someone needs to tell them to start with North-South and table Olive for a later phase. Secondly Metro has a plans on the table for BRT on the same NS route, obviously there is an extreme disconnect but figuring out which plan survives going forward is far from certain. Whatever is built should be part of a Metro system, not competitive with it.1) Get the N-S Metrolink out of your head its done, the St. Louis Streetcar is the future. Phase II of the streetcar will go further south and north to mimic N-S line. The city is trying to secure funding for future studies, engineering, and operations through the Amendment 7.
The station at Olive and 270 was ALWAYS a planned part of the Westport line. So was a stop at Dielman (GSA), and at Warson (Danforth/Monsanto). If one were to build a Westport line where else would you put the stops...?2) Olivette and U-City just finished a I-170/Olive corridor redevelopment plan. Ray Lai (a top planner for U-City) told me first hand years ago that Metro will have a station at Olive (Before prop A passed), but I wasn't able to piece it together until recent conversations about transportation.
I just don't think anyone at the municipal planning and zoning level thinks it will ever happen. I've mentioned it before and I got alot of eye rolling. The joint redevelopment at Olive and 270 doesn't "require" a metrolink stop. If it leaves room for it, more is the better. If the county has a grand scheme for the area around the Danforth Center it is pretty mum about it, so much so that Olivette has been considering turning a city park into a giant car-oriented sport complex (w/ parking galore). If the area is to have a high density redevelopment push, no one is talking about it. Even the Olivette Strategic Plan barely gets a nod when considering development proposals.
If we SHOULD have learned ANYTHING from the current metrolink system, its that a transit line without coordinated TOD at the intended stations leads to a decade of finger-pointing and whole lot of wasted infrastructure investment. Metrolink has been around for nearly 20 years and St. Louis has yet to start developing many of the various station stops. The list of under-developed stations is INCREDIBLY LONG.
Also GRG plans to build the Centennial Greenway along that route as well. If there was a real plan to get a Westport line built don't you think someone would have told them not to bother. Trail infrastructure is a long term investment as-well, and the more people get used to it being there the more local resistance you are going to get when you try to remove it for metrolink.
If this is true it certainly gives you a stronger argument. Dooley IS on record stating Westport is the #1 priority. I guess its hard to fault the county for wanting to spend county money in the county. And the fact that the Page BRT wasn't chosen is more evidence to support your assertion. I also get the big money and institutional interest in transit alternatives, and Westport is often sited as being the line with the most potential for two way traffic as there are people who would travel to Clayton and Downtown for work each day and people who would travel from downtown to Danforth, and Westport.3) St. Louis County has a "we do what we want to do with our money" mentality. I found out recently that Metro does not operate like a slush fund. Meaning the best projects in the whole Metro district gets picked. There is City money, County money, and Metro East money. That's why we are hearing a lot of talk about the city buying its portion of the BRT and not the region. Metro is a regional agency but without the merger of city and county, decisions will be politically dominated by the largest donor (the county). That is why Metro feels obligated to have bus service in areas that don't really even need it or want it, instead of increasing frequency on certain routes in the urban core. Its about us vs. them. Unfortunately, the city still wants to play paddy cake with county and believe this regionalism crap.
That said Everything South of 40 is pretty much being treated like transit's red headed step child. At some point their patience will ebb.
Also lets not forget the re-entry factor. I feel this is likely to make it to the ballot in 2016 and IF it does and passes there will no longer be City money and County Money. This could be the pivotal decision that gets regional metro planning back on sane footing.
I just feel like the actual path forward is FAR from certain. There are definitely interests who will push for a Westport line. In some ways your source's claims make sense. In other ways they are absolutely counter to what appear to be happening on the ground.
I'm very jaded when it comes to Metro and have no faith in their ability to provide a good long-term plan for the region's LRT system.
My skepticism comes from personal experience. My dad was head of the Cross County Collaborative that designed our current system. His stories of the ineptitude with-in Metro were mind-boggling and if Metro wasn't such a mess we would already be in the build phase of the N/S line. Metro tried to sue the Cross County Collaborative in 2005 to cover the mess they created and not only lost, they had a counter judgement against them costing $10s of millions in tax payer dollars.
http://www.dowdbennett.com/news/jury-or ... s-it-sued/
Despite his struggles with Metro, my dad believes in mass transit for our region so much he still takes the bus from his metro east home to a metrolink station in East St Louis to get to his DT office everyday.
If and when we have a streetcar line built we would be better off having any agency other than Metro handle it.
My skepticism comes from personal experience. My dad was head of the Cross County Collaborative that designed our current system. His stories of the ineptitude with-in Metro were mind-boggling and if Metro wasn't such a mess we would already be in the build phase of the N/S line. Metro tried to sue the Cross County Collaborative in 2005 to cover the mess they created and not only lost, they had a counter judgement against them costing $10s of millions in tax payer dollars.
http://www.dowdbennett.com/news/jury-or ... s-it-sued/
Despite his struggles with Metro, my dad believes in mass transit for our region so much he still takes the bus from his metro east home to a metrolink station in East St Louis to get to his DT office everyday.
If and when we have a streetcar line built we would be better off having any agency other than Metro handle it.
Right. We have streets in the city that are wide enough for a dedicated streetcar/BRT lane and still allow four lanes of car traffic. That would make a streetcar/BRT system fast and reliable. I think picking those type of streets will help narrow down where it is best to put a transit line. Jefferson, Gravois, Chouteau/Manchester, N. Florissant, maybe MLK come to mind. They're underused by cars, hit a lot of neighborhoods, and can potentially connect to existing transportation.Definitely true, and that makes sense. I just hope the streetcar system would be efficient enough to be effective as transit for those need it and those who would like a reason to use it over a car.
I guess it may really come down to the set up of each line. With enough dedicated lanes, it should run at a decent clip.
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Remember, whether heavier light rail, streetcar or brt, there will still be the speed limit in place so one rapid transit mode won't inherently be faster than another. By far though the most efficient way to build out a system would be to go the true BRT route... something like the Cleveland Health Line. (Operational costs may be a bit higher though as I believe streetcar maintenance is less costly than buses.) You could easily add on a nice north-south segment to the Saint Louis Streetcar line if it went true BRT rather than having to lay track.jstriebel wrote: My biggest worry about going full-fledged street car is that it won't really operate in a time efficient manner so as to be more convenient than driving, but may still cost us a great deal of money.
By the way, I was in a car behind one of the new articulated 70 buses in Holly Hills area and they just aren't the solution. We need efficient, faster service for our most highly traveled route rather than a slow-poke snoozer line.
^ Yes, Metro really messed up not pursuing fed $ for Cross County. We could have gotten Cross County and Daniel Boone or North South if that stupid mistake wasn't made. County Prop A money is basically being used to pay off that bad decision until at least 2020.
Metro had $400 million in its war chest, but the funds had to be used to pay off Cross County.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/05/22/ ... o-transit/
So in 5-10 years when the Prop A money accumulates another $500 million dollar match, who do you think will get the money? Ahem ..... Westport (cough sound).
Metro had $400 million in its war chest, but the funds had to be used to pay off Cross County.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/05/22/ ... o-transit/
So in 5-10 years when the Prop A money accumulates another $500 million dollar match, who do you think will get the money? Ahem ..... Westport (cough sound).
I've heard that if Metro can get MoDOT to commit $50 million/year, We could fully build out the transit vision and operate it at high frequency by 2030. Metro would have simply bonded out projects to accelerate the construction and be federally competitive. Having the local match in hand also makes you much more competitive.
One more thing to consider.
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... l?page=all
"A Cortex MetroLink station would help solidify the innovation district as a destination for out-of-town businesses to relocate, and connect riders from across the St. Louis metro area with what is likely to become one of the region’s biggest job generator"
Monsanto/Danforth has already invested heavily into an auto-centric, suburban wasteland, which will make it increasingly difficult to attract talent and start-ups, especially when Cortex is right down the street. They are too heavily invested in suburbia to move to the city or build near an existing station, so their idea is to bring the urban amenities to them. Its really a long term plan. They know by 2025 Cortex will be busting at the seems and thousands of, national and international, business people will be taking the Metrolink from Lambert to Cortex on a daily basis, staying at hotels in the Cortex district, being entertained in the CWE for the weekend, getting back on the Metrolink to Lambert, flying back to Boston, San Francisco, Berlin, Tokyo, Sao Paulo etc. with the impression that St. Louis is a first rate city with modern amenities and a top notch research park at Cortex, let me call my buddies about making some investments there. The big wigs want to be able to say, hey lets hop on the Metro so I can show you around the Danforth Research Center, no need to get in the rent-a-car. Bio-Science employess want to be able to travel between Cortex and Danforth without having to be inconvenienced by a car, while looking over some reports.
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... l?page=all
"A Cortex MetroLink station would help solidify the innovation district as a destination for out-of-town businesses to relocate, and connect riders from across the St. Louis metro area with what is likely to become one of the region’s biggest job generator"
Monsanto/Danforth has already invested heavily into an auto-centric, suburban wasteland, which will make it increasingly difficult to attract talent and start-ups, especially when Cortex is right down the street. They are too heavily invested in suburbia to move to the city or build near an existing station, so their idea is to bring the urban amenities to them. Its really a long term plan. They know by 2025 Cortex will be busting at the seems and thousands of, national and international, business people will be taking the Metrolink from Lambert to Cortex on a daily basis, staying at hotels in the Cortex district, being entertained in the CWE for the weekend, getting back on the Metrolink to Lambert, flying back to Boston, San Francisco, Berlin, Tokyo, Sao Paulo etc. with the impression that St. Louis is a first rate city with modern amenities and a top notch research park at Cortex, let me call my buddies about making some investments there. The big wigs want to be able to say, hey lets hop on the Metro so I can show you around the Danforth Research Center, no need to get in the rent-a-car. Bio-Science employess want to be able to travel between Cortex and Danforth without having to be inconvenienced by a car, while looking over some reports.