^ Yup. I was really excited over the Prop A vote and all the hype about expansion. A wonderful, broad-based coalition helped make a convincing win and Bob Baer seemed to do a good job with Metro; and then it all went away.
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Has there been an EIS for any of these routes? I mean that's the first step that needs to taken before you can build it...and those take probably 18-24 months for light rail.
There is money in the sales tax for EIS for "future light rail expansion", what lines? I don't know.dbInSouthCity wrote:Has there been an EIS for any of these routes? I mean that's the first step that needs to taken before you can build it...and those take probably 18-24 months for light rail.
In regards to park and ride, I love the idea of a NS line going to 270N and maybe 270S, it's a royal pain to drive from areas such as 367 to downtown. We can have a park and ride there as a way to bring people in the city without cars.
^ If this region wasn't so segmented, and wasn't choked by an "if-one-then-all" project development mindset, the North-South Metrolink should <i>already</i> be underway.
It isn't a slight to the northside to say that Metrolink to the southside makes the most sense -- from a density standpoint, from an attractions standpoint, from a buy-in standpoint, it makes the most sense. A line terminating at Loughborough (either the De Soto or the Jefferson preferred alternatives) <i>would</i> be used by a LOT of south/southeast city's residents and would likely also create a boom in bus ridership on the south side. The southside is PRIMED for growth -- so many neighborhoods are <finally</i> fully coming into their own. Rail transit is the most obvious next step.
From there, an extension from downtown up to Hyde Park/Old North shouldn't be that far behind. If McKee ever gets moving on his "New North", I want the groundwork already laid for something that can stitch the Near North to downtown, rather than continuing as a racial dividing line.
It isn't a slight to the northside to say that Metrolink to the southside makes the most sense -- from a density standpoint, from an attractions standpoint, from a buy-in standpoint, it makes the most sense. A line terminating at Loughborough (either the De Soto or the Jefferson preferred alternatives) <i>would</i> be used by a LOT of south/southeast city's residents and would likely also create a boom in bus ridership on the south side. The southside is PRIMED for growth -- so many neighborhoods are <finally</i> fully coming into their own. Rail transit is the most obvious next step.
From there, an extension from downtown up to Hyde Park/Old North shouldn't be that far behind. If McKee ever gets moving on his "New North", I want the groundwork already laid for something that can stitch the Near North to downtown, rather than continuing as a racial dividing line.
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It would also be a political LOSER. You point out the North South divide but neglect the City County divide. Why people are so quick to exclude the county when it comes to extending the Metrolink expansion is beyond me. Reality Check. IT WILL NOT BE PASSED IF THE COUNTY GETS NOTHING. Now a proposal for the Southside line that extends into South County has a chance. There will be plenty of resistance no matter what because you can't serve everyone with any one line BUT it builds support on both sides of that divide so it has a chance. A plan that excludes the County entirely is doomed.A line terminating at Loughborough (either the De Soto or the Jefferson preferred alternatives) would be used by a LOT of south/southeast city's residents and would likely also create a boom in bus ridership on the south side.
My personal route preference would be Tucker/Gravois all the way to I270.
Second best would be Grand Center to Carondolet Park via Grand Ave. then Lemay Ferry Rd. to South County Center.
Would expanding into the County actually make the chances of a North/South line go up noticeably? County-ites don't seem particularly inclined to support any transit project that isn't a road or highway, and a bond issue for a line bringing (what they see as) poor City residents flooding into South County seems unlikely to pass. It seems like the most viable way forward would be to fund the MetroLink expansion ourselves, however, I have no idea how we would raise the funds. Taxes are already pretty high, and there is not much more to be tapped. What I do know is that the longer we spend in limbo with MetroLink expansion, the longer it will not be there to stimulate growth in the City.
Word is that the county will try to push for Westport within the next decade. Apparently county leaders think this thing is federally competitive (which I highly doubt under new FTA regulations), but I could see this thing being turned into an socioeconomic and political melee. Also, West County NIMBYs would kill this thing before it even got off the ground or turn it into a engineering nightmare which will exploded costs and making it too expensive to build. People say N-S is a white elephant, but this thing is the real white elephant. I see very little benefit or need under current circumstances.
I also agree with the idea that a strictly city line is DOA, much less an exclusive south city line. Not only would it immediately turn into a North vs. South City issue (likely a racial powder keg), the county wouldn't let it happen. That's why I wish city and county leaders would get their head out of their asses and build a complete N-S line from 270 to 270. I believe the price tag would approach $2billion, but it is the only extension that is politically feasible locally and federally competitive. I think that should be our last big transit push for a generation from Metro. Then focus on TOD and land use.
I also agree with the idea that a strictly city line is DOA, much less an exclusive south city line. Not only would it immediately turn into a North vs. South City issue (likely a racial powder keg), the county wouldn't let it happen. That's why I wish city and county leaders would get their head out of their asses and build a complete N-S line from 270 to 270. I believe the price tag would approach $2billion, but it is the only extension that is politically feasible locally and federally competitive. I think that should be our last big transit push for a generation from Metro. Then focus on TOD and land use.
^So screw Metro then. Let's connect the city with more lines through a cost effective streetcar. We don't have to wait for the county. If we make the city more desirable, everything else will fall into place.
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^^^ Ebsy, don't sell countians short on metrolink expansion; The County's Prop A passed with over 60% of the vote in 2010 with most believing their support would fund metrolink expansion.
But with Metro's questionable practices that have made metrolink expansion more difficult, we may have to scale back our expectations if we want to see anything in the foreseeable future. Do we have only a North or South segment to start? Do we scale back to true BRT from laying track? Anyway, I hope we soon have an honest and open discussion on moving rapid transit forward.
But with Metro's questionable practices that have made metrolink expansion more difficult, we may have to scale back our expectations if we want to see anything in the foreseeable future. Do we have only a North or South segment to start? Do we scale back to true BRT from laying track? Anyway, I hope we soon have an honest and open discussion on moving rapid transit forward.
Agreed. I think it'll be difficult to do any expansion of Metro because there are too many people to please. The county has too many municipalities that are all over the place in regards to their opinions on transit. City residents seem to be pretty united towards transit expansion. The city is large enough to take this on on its own. We shouldn't leave our connectivity problems to be solved by the county.^So screw Metro then. Let's connect the city with more lines through a cost effective streetcar. We don't have to wait for the county. If we make the city more desirable, everything else will fall into place.
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Streetcars are pretty expensive but if we can get some funding mechanisms in place like what KC is doing through special tax assessments of neighboring businesses and property owners we might be able to build out a decent network (which could still be operated by Metro).robertn42 wrote:^So screw Metro then. Let's connect the city with more lines through a cost effective streetcar. We don't have to wait for the county. If we make the city more desirable, everything else will fall into place.
But I'll point out that if we went for true BRT instead of streetcar we could go a lot further with dollars and not sacrifice much at all with speed or development potential. For the projected cost of $250 million+ for Saint Louis Streetcar, I'd think if we went with true BRT instead we could build out a south extension from downtown to say Cherokee. That would give us a pretty good starter system extending from downtown to CWE and from Cherokee Street to Saint Louis Avenue along with that Delmar Loop amusement that someday could extend into the CWE.
Is the barrier to funding Metrolink expansion entirely political, or is it also the result of trying to build *complete lines* all at once? It can't be cost effective to build a line out past 170, there simply isn't enough residential density and riders to create enough stops per unit distance. What would it cost to build the first 2-3 N-S line stops in dense parts of the city and grow the system in stages, as opposed to trying to map out the entire N-S line and build it in one shot?
By thinking on a smaller scale, would more be accomplished more quickly? Like limiting each proposed expansion to 2 mile lines branching off or extending lines.
The next line for example could be:
- a 1.5 mile downtown loop to help activate downtown west, following Washington to Jefferson to Market, from Convention Center to Union Sta. There may even be existing tunnels in some of this area.
- DT -> Lafayette Sq -> Soulard Market -> Brewery
- SLU/Grand Center -> Chouteau -> Arsenal -> Gravois along Grand or thereabouts.
Better yet, use the old streetcar routes as the system map. There should be N-S lines on Broadway, Jefferson, Grand, KHwy, and radiating/E-W lines on the spoke roads.
Is perfection/completism preventing good enough?
By thinking on a smaller scale, would more be accomplished more quickly? Like limiting each proposed expansion to 2 mile lines branching off or extending lines.
The next line for example could be:
- a 1.5 mile downtown loop to help activate downtown west, following Washington to Jefferson to Market, from Convention Center to Union Sta. There may even be existing tunnels in some of this area.
- DT -> Lafayette Sq -> Soulard Market -> Brewery
- SLU/Grand Center -> Chouteau -> Arsenal -> Gravois along Grand or thereabouts.
Better yet, use the old streetcar routes as the system map. There should be N-S lines on Broadway, Jefferson, Grand, KHwy, and radiating/E-W lines on the spoke roads.
Is perfection/completism preventing good enough?
Ok....so here is what I've been told from a few sources.
1. County is going to get Westport in exchange for paying off Metro's Cross County debt.
Simply put the county is buying this thing and will likely go forward with it whether its is politically feasible, federally competitive or not. The county's thinking is that we foot the bill, so we get the premium service. Even if they have to pull an over engineered, cost overrun, Cross County part II, the county has an its our money we build what toys we want mentality.....period!
2. Westport has way more institutional backers than N-S line.
Unfortunately, our downtown is just not strong enough and there are not enough monied institutions or major corporate or educational campuses on the Northern and Southern axis to push for this thing.
I've heard this thing is getting pushed by some heavy weights like....ahem...Monsanto.....ahem.....Danforth Plant Science Center.....ahem.....University City and Olivette......ahem.....the Westport business park......ahem.....freaking CLAYTON! Those are just some heavy guns that the city cant compete with.
For paying off the debt of Cross County this decade they will get Westport in the 2020s.....pushing N-S to probably the 2030/2040s or virtually never....grrhhhhh
3. Some specifics I've gathered from multiple sources and tying it all in.
U-City gets a stop at I-170 and Olive as part of the I-170 Olive redevelopment. There are plans for some kind of mixed use international district, pretty cool stuff if you haven't heard about it.
http://www.ucitymo.org/documentcenter/view/7157
http://www.ucitymo.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/2022
Danforth Plant Science Center and Monsanto gets a stop at Ashby or Warson in a suburban attempt to emulate Cortex. They realize that transit is going to be key in attracting the talent they need. Cortex has exceeded all expectations and will likely be built out way before its projected completion date, the county wants some of that action. I believe they have long range plans of turning Danforth into a mixed use district a la Cortex. That's the only way the can compete long term, because all the talent will want to work at Cortex if given the option.
Westport stop in conjunction with Maryland Heights Dorsett Road redevelopment. In other words, the county knows that Westport is doomed unless it redevelops itself. The long range plan is likely to turn Westport into a downtown node for West County and a cool place to park your car on the way to a cards game.....dontchaknow!
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... etedoc.pdf
Finally, it obviously solidifies Clayton as the jobs center and most interconnected business center in the region. No need to live play and work all they way downtown, we got our own imitation downtown in St. Louis County.
Now I have no problem with Clayton getting a Westport line and some of the long term vision has promise, but come on man.....N-S should get the nod first.
* Also, Mike Jones (Dooley's right hand man) said it will likely be the green line....ya know for Plant Science Corridor
4. Mayor Slay and SLDC knows that Metro sold them down the river once the county offered to pay off Cross County bonds. That's why the idea for the streetcar came about. The city will go forward with the streetcar just like KC has, the parts of the city that want connectivity will have to establish their own TDD's. They have given up on the prospects for a N-S line this generation. North County knows what the deal is too, that's why the Natural Bridge BRT is the exact same line as the N-S Metro. Westport had bigger guns.
1. County is going to get Westport in exchange for paying off Metro's Cross County debt.
Simply put the county is buying this thing and will likely go forward with it whether its is politically feasible, federally competitive or not. The county's thinking is that we foot the bill, so we get the premium service. Even if they have to pull an over engineered, cost overrun, Cross County part II, the county has an its our money we build what toys we want mentality.....period!
2. Westport has way more institutional backers than N-S line.
Unfortunately, our downtown is just not strong enough and there are not enough monied institutions or major corporate or educational campuses on the Northern and Southern axis to push for this thing.
I've heard this thing is getting pushed by some heavy weights like....ahem...Monsanto.....ahem.....Danforth Plant Science Center.....ahem.....University City and Olivette......ahem.....the Westport business park......ahem.....freaking CLAYTON! Those are just some heavy guns that the city cant compete with.
For paying off the debt of Cross County this decade they will get Westport in the 2020s.....pushing N-S to probably the 2030/2040s or virtually never....grrhhhhh
3. Some specifics I've gathered from multiple sources and tying it all in.
U-City gets a stop at I-170 and Olive as part of the I-170 Olive redevelopment. There are plans for some kind of mixed use international district, pretty cool stuff if you haven't heard about it.
http://www.ucitymo.org/documentcenter/view/7157
http://www.ucitymo.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/2022
Danforth Plant Science Center and Monsanto gets a stop at Ashby or Warson in a suburban attempt to emulate Cortex. They realize that transit is going to be key in attracting the talent they need. Cortex has exceeded all expectations and will likely be built out way before its projected completion date, the county wants some of that action. I believe they have long range plans of turning Danforth into a mixed use district a la Cortex. That's the only way the can compete long term, because all the talent will want to work at Cortex if given the option.
Westport stop in conjunction with Maryland Heights Dorsett Road redevelopment. In other words, the county knows that Westport is doomed unless it redevelops itself. The long range plan is likely to turn Westport into a downtown node for West County and a cool place to park your car on the way to a cards game.....dontchaknow!
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... etedoc.pdf
Finally, it obviously solidifies Clayton as the jobs center and most interconnected business center in the region. No need to live play and work all they way downtown, we got our own imitation downtown in St. Louis County.
Now I have no problem with Clayton getting a Westport line and some of the long term vision has promise, but come on man.....N-S should get the nod first.
* Also, Mike Jones (Dooley's right hand man) said it will likely be the green line....ya know for Plant Science Corridor
4. Mayor Slay and SLDC knows that Metro sold them down the river once the county offered to pay off Cross County bonds. That's why the idea for the streetcar came about. The city will go forward with the streetcar just like KC has, the parts of the city that want connectivity will have to establish their own TDD's. They have given up on the prospects for a N-S line this generation. North County knows what the deal is too, that's why the Natural Bridge BRT is the exact same line as the N-S Metro. Westport had bigger guns.
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^ What you describe is so utterly stupid that I know it has to be true! So Saint Louis! That line has no chance for federal $$ and I don't see it getting built. A lot of wishful thinking, though.
Trust me....I cant make this s*** up. I want it to be false, but when I heard that the money allocated for planning and EIS on Amendment 7 was for Westport and not N-S it confirmed everything my sources said.roger wyoming II wrote:^ What you describe is so utterly stupid that I know it has to be true! So Saint Louis! That line has no chance for federal $$ and I don't see it getting built. A lot of wishful thinking, though.
It will probably get some fed money, just not as much as a North-South line. The feds will probably attach a lot of stipulations to it. If it is not federally competitive or local government doesn't like all of the federal demands, the county will just pull a cross county pt. II and bond it out the wazoo!
Westport's future is something like this. Office park heaven and a nice place for West Countians to park their BMW's in massive parking garages on their way to a Cards game at Ballpark Village! YAY!
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That "Monsanto" stop at Ashby is a full mile from the Monsanto Campus. There is no way people are walking to that.
No one is going to walk 30-40 min.
No one is going to walk 30-40 min.
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The St. Louis region will swallow itself whole and sink into obliviongoat314 wrote:Ok....so here is what I've been told from a few sources.
1. County is going to get Westport in exchange for paying off Metro's Cross County debt.
Simply put the county is buying this thing and will likely go forward with it whether its is politically feasible, federally competitive or not. The county's thinking is that we foot the bill, so we get the premium service. Even if they have to pull an over engineered, cost overrun, Cross County part II, the county has an its our money we build what toys we want mentality.....period!
2. Westport has way more institutional backers than N-S line.
Unfortunately, our downtown is just not strong enough and there are not enough monied institutions or major corporate or educational campuses on the Northern and Southern axis to push for this thing.
I've heard this thing is getting pushed by some heavy weights like....ahem...Monsanto.....ahem.....Danforth Plant Science Center.....ahem.....University City and Olivette......ahem.....the Westport business park......ahem.....freaking CLAYTON! Those are just some heavy guns that the city cant compete with.
For paying off the debt of Cross County this decade they will get Westport in the 2020s.....pushing N-S to probably the 2030/2040s or virtually never....grrhhhhh
3. Some specifics I've gathered from multiple sources and tying it all in.
U-City gets a stop at I-170 and Olive as part of the I-170 Olive redevelopment. There are plans for some kind of mixed use international district, pretty cool stuff if you haven't heard about it.
http://www.ucitymo.org/documentcenter/view/7157
http://www.ucitymo.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/2022
Danforth Plant Science Center and Monsanto gets a stop at Ashby or Warson in a suburban attempt to emulate Cortex. They realize that transit is going to be key in attracting the talent they need. Cortex has exceeded all expectations and will likely be built out way before its projected completion date, the county wants some of that action. I believe they have long range plans of turning Danforth into a mixed use district a la Cortex. That's the only way the can compete long term, because all the talent will want to work at Cortex if given the option.
Westport stop in conjunction with Maryland Heights Dorsett Road redevelopment. In other words, the county knows that Westport is doomed unless it redevelops itself. The long range plan is likely to turn Westport into a downtown node for West County and a cool place to park your car on the way to a cards game.....dontchaknow!
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... etedoc.pdf
Finally, it obviously solidifies Clayton as the jobs center and most interconnected business center in the region. No need to live play and work all they way downtown, we got our own imitation downtown in St. Louis County.
Now I have no problem with Clayton getting a Westport line and some of the long term vision has promise, but come on man.....N-S should get the nod first.
* Also, Mike Jones (Dooley's right hand man) said it will likely be the green line....ya know for Plant Science Corridor
4. Mayor Slay and SLDC knows that Metro sold them down the river once the county offered to pay off Cross County bonds. That's why the idea for the streetcar came about. The city will go forward with the streetcar just like KC has, the parts of the city that want connectivity will have to establish their own TDD's. They have given up on the prospects for a N-S line this generation. North County knows what the deal is too, that's why the Natural Bridge BRT is the exact same line as the N-S Metro. Westport had bigger guns.
Look at a google map, its about building a corridor. Tearing down old warehouses (like Cortex) for shiny new "mixed use" buildings. I'd imagine a lot of infrastructure would be invested in walkable infrastructure, shuttles, bike lanes etc. Very long term at this point, but that's the "plan".moorlander wrote:That "Monsanto" stop at Ashby is a full mile from the Monsanto Campus. There is no way people are walking to that.
No one is going to walk 30-40 min.
The Westport line terminus at Dorsett would be far from core of Westport and I-270 office parks, but I'm sure they could accommodate with some last mile shuttle service or something. Pretty sure they will be some pretty serious garage mahals as well.
Westport isn't even cool.1. County is going to get Westport in exchange for paying off Metro's Cross County debt.
Simply put the county is buying this thing and will likely go forward with it whether its is politically feasible, federally competitive or not. The county's thinking is that we foot the bill, so we get the premium service. Even if they have to pull an over engineered, cost overrun, Cross County part II, the county has an its our money we build what toys we want mentality.....period!
2. Westport has way more institutional backers than N-S line.
Unfortunately, our downtown is just not strong enough and there are not enough monied institutions or major corporate or educational campuses on the Northern and Southern axis to push for this thing.
I've heard this thing is getting pushed by some heavy weights like....ahem...Monsanto.....ahem.....Danforth Plant Science Center.....ahem.....University City and Olivette......ahem.....the Westport business park......ahem.....freaking CLAYTON! Those are just some heavy guns that the city cant compete with.
For paying off the debt of Cross County this decade they will get Westport in the 2020s.....pushing N-S to probably the 2030/2040s or virtually never....grrhhhhh
3. Some specifics I've gathered from multiple sources and tying it all in.
U-City gets a stop at I-170 and Olive as part of the I-170 Olive redevelopment. There are plans for some kind of mixed use international district, pretty cool stuff if you haven't heard about it.
http://www.ucitymo.org/documentcenter/view/7157
http://www.ucitymo.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/2022
Danforth Plant Science Center and Monsanto gets a stop at Ashby or Warson in a suburban attempt to emulate Cortex. They realize that transit is going to be key in attracting the talent they need. Cortex has exceeded all expectations and will likely be built out way before its projected completion date, the county wants some of that action. I believe they have long range plans of turning Danforth into a mixed use district a la Cortex. That's the only way the can compete long term, because all the talent will want to work at Cortex if given the option.
Westport stop in conjunction with Maryland Heights Dorsett Road redevelopment. In other words, the county knows that Westport is doomed unless it redevelops itself. The long range plan is likely to turn Westport into a downtown node for West County and a cool place to park your car on the way to a cards game.....dontchaknow!
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... etedoc.pdf
Finally, it obviously solidifies Clayton as the jobs center and most interconnected business center in the region. No need to live play and work all they way downtown, we got our own imitation downtown in St. Louis County.
Now I have no problem with Clayton getting a Westport line and some of the long term vision has promise, but come on man.....N-S should get the nod first.
* Also, Mike Jones (Dooley's right hand man) said it will likely be the green line....ya know for Plant Science Corridor
4. Mayor Slay and SLDC knows that Metro sold them down the river once the county offered to pay off Cross County bonds. That's why the idea for the streetcar came about. The city will go forward with the streetcar just like KC has, the parts of the city that want connectivity will have to establish their own TDD's. They have given up on the prospects for a N-S line this generation. North County knows what the deal is too, that's why the Natural Bridge BRT is the exact same line as the N-S Metro. Westport had bigger guns.
Also, the "feasibility study" and EIS might find the need to put a subway under Olive. You never know, obviously Metro would like to build it in the existing rail right of way, but wasn't Cross County over engineered too? With all the expensive and unnecessary tunneling. I imagine this will also be a NIMBY nightmare driving costs through the roof. I know for a fact that it will run parallel to I-170 until at least Olive. Then it has to options follow the existing right of way at a reduced cost or blowing costs through the roof and tunnel under or in its own right of way on Olive to get closer to Monsanto, then possibly up Lindbergh to Page to Westport. My guess is the existing ROW to keep cost down, but Monsanto is a big player and will likely get whatever they want.moorlander wrote:That "Monsanto" stop at Ashby is a full mile from the Monsanto Campus. There is no way people are walking to that.
No one is going to walk 30-40 min.
Ebsy, you are right Westport sucks balls! That's why the County wants to use Metro to revive the area into a more "mixed use" office park. Maybe they think it will be the St. Louis Tyson Corner or some crap. N-S line definitely has way more merit.
For the record, I've talked with a few people from Metro (one being my dad's girlfriend). Most at metro agree that N-S line from 270 to 270 is what the public wants and if Metro wasnt the political tool of local corporations and county politics that's what we would be getting next. The problem is that major corporations, like Monsanto, BJC, Washington University, Danforth etc. make the major policy decisions in our region. Kind of like the current state of our country, the decisions are made by the monied and powerful despite logic and overall need of citizenry.
For the record, I've talked with a few people from Metro (one being my dad's girlfriend). Most at metro agree that N-S line from 270 to 270 is what the public wants and if Metro wasnt the political tool of local corporations and county politics that's what we would be getting next. The problem is that major corporations, like Monsanto, BJC, Washington University, Danforth etc. make the major policy decisions in our region. Kind of like the current state of our country, the decisions are made by the monied and powerful despite logic and overall need of citizenry.
Who wants to work here? In hindsight a really big mistake choosing this site. It's going to take a huge public and private outlay to turn this into a place. Will it be worth it?
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Another note is that not doing N_S pulls the rug out of much of the Northside area.
Another note is that not doing N_S pulls the rug out of much of the Northside area.
It doesn't matter if its "worth it", our corporate overlords have spoken. They want their line. The people want N-S line, but the public doesn't make the decisions in American society, the monied lobbyist do.quincunx wrote:Who wants to work here? In hindsight a really big mistake choosing this site. It's going to take a huge public and private outlay to this into a place. Will it be worth it?
Another note is that not doing N_S pulls the rug out of much of the Northside area.