Northside-Southside Metrolink

dredger · PostDec 27, 2012#3262012-12-27T20:52+00:00

^ Believe Metro is in the process of serving downtown from the county via a planned Wash Ave station and Express Bus Service.

I have a tough time believing their is enough demand for commuter/heavy rail service to a core that doesn't have nearly the number of jobs of other cities with such service. The plus side for the region is that it does have a rail infrastructure/row in place to serve such a future need. In my mind, I don't believe the region will be served by using the existing freight ROW for light rail nor do I think you put such resources in place into those ROW/or even down the middle of a freeway until the investment is made to get HSR up to speed between Alton, IL and Downtown.

moorlander · PostDec 27, 2012#3272012-12-27T21:53+00:00

I guess I just don't understand the downtown loop. Why are all the stops so close together and completely ignoring everything west of tucker? Why not just run it up 14th street or Tucker?

I wish there was some way to service Soulard and the brewery on a south side alignment.

It would be nice is somehow we could run run on Kingshighway on southside option 2. I understand utilizing current train ROW is very economical but I'm afraid we'll run into the same issues we have on the blue/red line where it runs close to midtown and the central west end but it's simply too far for most people to walk. (as demonstrated in NextStl's recent twitter posts)

stlien · PostDec 27, 2012#3282012-12-27T23:01+00:00

moorlander wrote:I guess I just don't understand the downtown loop. Why are all the stops so close together and completely ignoring everything west of tucker? Why not just run it up 14th street or Tucker?

While having a north-south alignment on 14th would be the most inexpensive route, it would also have less impact on potential development considering the limited lots on which to build between Delmar/Convention and Clark Ave. The current 9th-10th alignment creates huge opportunities for developments on parking lots on Delmar/Convention from 14th to 9th; plus additional lots and established residential and commercial on and around 9th and 10th. More about total economic impact as opposed to just a low cost transit investment.

ImprovSTL · PostDec 27, 2012#3292012-12-27T23:21+00:00

It would be nice to have the metrolink have a stop in Old North and just give them more ammo in the great work they are doing.

What about a TIGER grant to kickstart things? If Obama's propsal goes through the amount will go up from 500 million to 4 billion if I understand correctly. An initial 20 to 50 million might push the state and region to raise the rest.

Alex Ihnen · PostDec 27, 2012#3302012-12-27T23:44+00:00

Given the cost estimates and funding, STL would be insane to pursue heavy-ish rail MetroLink. Streetcars and BRT would likely focus development on more dense corridors.

gone corporate · PostDec 28, 2012#3312012-12-28T20:37+00:00

Pat: Wanted to bring up your fundraising thoughts to commend your outside-the-box thinking. However, just because of the sheer size of these projects, I think that a full train being "kickstarted" wouldn't work, probably not even a trolley. Too many up-front costs. Kudos to original thinking.

Focus: This whole conversation reminds me of when I was working a political campaign in South County in 2004. I remember attending a workshop at what I believe is a Holiday Inn at Lindbergh along I-55. There, a whole set of schematics was put up to demonstrate three preferred pathways for a South Side Metrolink Expansion, with the preferred path following the River Des Peres from the Shrewsbury terminus, then turning to follow I-55 south, eventually going under the South County Mall, crossing I-255, and terminating near Butler Hill Road. We didn't know when it would be fundable. That was eight and a half years ago.

Going forward, my spidey sense tells me that the potential of NorthSide Regeneration building a trolley system will be the determinant of how Metrolink expands. Say North STL is able to recognize a private sector trolley system being built, servicing the needs of their population to a higher degree; would the North Side have the same needs of Metrolink-style light rail? Could there even be a change of priorities in a N/S Metrolink expansion, i.e. would the North Side have as much need and demand for full light rail service if a large portion of the area already has trolley service, hopefully integrating into Downtown Metrolink service? Could that even lead to the South Side being given priority status? Who knows.

I think there will be no real progression until the MO Supremes rule on the NorthSide Regeneration TIF, and with such determination either allowing the project to progress as planned or have to change. After that ruling, and news of any North STL trolley lines are announced, we'll have a much better understanding on City-based use & demand factors.

jakektu · PostDec 29, 2012#3322012-12-29T06:57+00:00

Gravois > Tucker > N Florrisant seems like the most logical route.

Was there a reason Gravois and Tucker were ruled out?

roger wyoming II · PostDec 29, 2012#3332012-12-29T15:37+00:00

^ That does seem to be a very logical fixed transit route.

As BRT will be the only thing we might see in the foreseeable future, perhaps this route as BRT might be more conducive to planners.

ImprovSTL · PostDec 29, 2012#3342012-12-29T16:28+00:00

Man, I really hate the idea of several private trolleys in the city that don't coordinate with Metro.

wabash · PostDec 29, 2012#3352012-12-29T17:21+00:00

jakektu wrote:Gravois > Tucker > N Florrisant seems like the most logical route.

Agreed. Maybe they stayed off of Tucker because they felt they absolutely had to connect with Civic Center/Gateway Transit Center on 14th, where all of the Metro buses converge.

ImprovSTL wrote:Man, I really hate the idea of several private trolleys in the city that don't coordinate with Metro.

That does sound frustrating, and I'm not sure that's really on the table as an option or that there are any privately funded transit projects in this country currently. But privately funded trolleys did lead to St. Louis having this streetcar map, so it can be/was a good thing:

Gateway City · PostMay 12, 2013#3362013-05-12T22:49+00:00

Ah, if only we still had those streetcars...

Are we any closer to the N-S line?

Also, what is the cost?

wabash · PostMay 13, 2013#3372013-05-13T02:24+00:00

The last estimates we have are from the East-West Gateway Northside-Southside Study, published in October 2008.
The Chouteau/UPRR route was estimated at $678.6 million:

The Jefferson/I-55 route was estimated at $537.4 million:

Both of the estimates are just for the southside portion of the expansion (basically starting at 14th & Spruce) and not for any downtown or northside infrastructure. It's safe to say that the estimates would be considerably higher today than they were 5 years ago.

Also, here's what the study has to say about use of the Union Pacific's right-of-way and how it would conflict with Metrolink:
"Preliminary discussions with UPRR management indicate that the freight and LRT will have to be separated with a crash wall barrier. The barrier is assumed to be 25 feet from the freight alignment. Because of this requirement and right-of-way limitations, much of the existing freight alignment would have to be relocated within the rightof-way. Further constraints within the existing ROW include reserving space for a second freight track expected in the future. Most existing overpass structures on the alignment would also need to be rebuilt. Many active and inactive spur tracks exist along the corridor and should be considered for decommissioning."

It's pretty ridiculous that they would want a 25 foot "crash wall barrier" and room for an "expected" second track. My understanding is that they don't use the existing track very much as it is. Also, I don't see how two freight tracks, two metrolink tracks, and a 25 foot "crash wall barrier" could fit in that ROW.

PostMay 13, 2013#3382013-05-13T02:41+00:00

Just realized Stlien posted all of this and more on the previous page.

Hopefully there's some NEW data to post sometime in the not too distant future.

goat314 · PostMay 13, 2013#3392013-05-13T02:58+00:00

Were easily looking at $900 Million for the N-S Line within the city limits and about 1.5 Billion for the full build out far into North and South County. IMHO this line is absolutely crucial to the future viability of our light rail system. We are likely a generation away from a full build out of the current Metrolink expansion plan. If local leadership and MODOT were smart we would be trying to out the whole system by 2025 to remain competitive with similar sized Metros like Minneapolis, Seattle, and Denver. Unfortunately, we will likely spend another couple billion on highway expansion before we see another line built unless federal law drastically changes the way State DOTs and MPOs can distribute transportation funds.

I also agree what somebody said earlier about Metro putting the breaks on studying the N-S line, because the Westport line would be deemed federally uncompetitive and the county feels like if they cant have their choo-choo expansion the city cant have their choo-choo. This was pretty evident when Charlie Dooley tried to block the modest streetcar proposal in fear that it would take money away from the "Westport Deal" as he put it. Which is odd because I'm sure somebody has informed him by now that the Westport line is D.O.A. unless they make some major land use commitments and have a serious plan to incorporate low income and mixed use housing along the route. Something that I see being a hard sell in this part of the county. N-S line is really the only viable line right now, but has very little support outside the city.

wabash · PostMay 13, 2013#3402013-05-13T03:25+00:00

^It's infuriating.

Absent City reentry into the County, it makes me wonder if the City could unilaterally work with Metro to develop the line. St. Clair acted on its own to fund its expansions, why can't the city do the same? It's not setting a good precedent for cooperation, regionalism, etc... but at some point the city needs to look out for its best interests and not wait and play second fiddle to a project that the County isn't particularly inspired about and the Fed has no interest in supporting (aka the Westport Line). The entire N/S line would be a lot to bite off, but with some federal funding, a few additional tax dollars, and a special business district tax, I don't see why the City couldn't get the Jefferson ROW built from Keokuk to Wash Ave. (4.4 miles). There's way too much on the line for this entire project to continue to be mothballed, and implementing highway-centric BRT is no consolation.

Gateway City · PostMay 13, 2013#3412013-05-13T04:13+00:00

I wouldn't mind seeing just the southside line built initially and then building the northside line shortly thereafter. This would get the ball rolling...Just gotta find $600 million somewhere...

quincunx · PostFeb 10, 2014#3422014-02-10T21:54+00:00

BTW N-S Metrolink was a hands down victor in a survey done by CMT. BRT was a distant loser. Those who care know that the BRT plans are lame. It doesn't serve enough, connect enough, make a big enough development impact.

STLEnginerd · PostFeb 10, 2014#3432014-02-10T23:42+00:00

^Umm... Why is the estimated cost of the St. Louis streetcar only 2.6% of building the N/S Metrolink. I realize its a shorter distance (half?) and somewhat cheaper track (lighter duty rail?, cheaper cars?) easier transitions (crossing the rail yard downtown?) but the disparity seems intuitively wrong. They both run in existing ROW so land acquisition cost can't be the issue.

Gateway City · PostFeb 10, 2014#3442014-02-10T23:57+00:00

I can't answer that question, but I can say that it's about time our region's "leaders" got their heads out of their asses, wake up and smell the coffee! This survey proves everything I've been saying for years now. The N-S MetroLink should be our region's #1 transit priority. Instead of blowing hundreds of millions on widening already underused highways in the middle of Bumf-ck, Missourah, the State needs to put a little money into starting this new MetroLink line for St. Louis.

mill204 · PostFeb 11, 2014#3452014-02-11T00:01+00:00

^^ It's a typo. Copy/pasted numbers from Metro's estimated BRT costs. The estimated cost of the St. Louis streetcar is $218-$271 million for 7 miles of track, or $31-$39 million per mile. Tough to say how many miles Northside-Southside MetroLink is supposed to be as different termini have been thrown around in recent years, but the cost was estimated at about $80 million per mile (guessing based on memory).

Eastward · PostMar 03, 2014#3462014-03-03T22:23+00:00

Could a streetcar line be built in a similar fashion to what Kansas City is doing with the special tax zone?

A line connecting the near south and near north sides as a starter is needed asap to take advantage of momentum and build upon it in my opinion. I agree that any line must be built on both the north and south sides at the same time, or north-side aldermen and residents would cry foul.

A shorter starter line from Old North, down Florissant to 14th, Gravois and Jefferson to around Cherokee Street would be a good start and serve not only important up and coming areas such as Old North, Downtown, run near Lafayette Square, skirt Soulard and hit Benton Park and Cherokee Street. This route would serve not only areas, where under-served people reside but also provide impetuous for development in crucial areas such as Old North, Benton Park and the Cherokee area. As an extra bonus, it would provide easy access for tourists to use transit to get to Lafayette Square and Soulard, although I don't believe such services should be built to cater only to tourists.

Does the city have money to go about this alone? Would a special tax district even be possible or feasible?

roger wyoming II · PostMar 03, 2014#3472014-03-03T22:51+00:00

^ nice post.

I believe the Saint Louis Streetcar proposal is dependent upon a special taxing district like Kansas City. It is planned to have a north extension up 14th Street, but I have always thought a south extension would be wise as well to get at least into Soulard as a first step with possible extensions later. Anyway, I think it is a great idea and very much needed. The other strong positive here is I do think McKee wants to see transit in Northside Regeneration area, and that should boost the prospects for Saint Louis Streetcar.

dmmonty1 · PostMar 03, 2014#3482014-03-03T22:59+00:00

Anyone know if a streetcar could run on Gravois? I was under the impression that it wasn't considered for the N-S metrolink because its not technically a city street - in which case would a streetcar be any different? I actually think Gravois would be one of the best possible routes, esp. since it would connect with Grand.

Eastward · PostMar 03, 2014#3492014-03-03T23:06+00:00

Right, first steps first!

I believe it is absolutely crucial that this be built. While the arguments for buses are sound in that they are more flexible and cost-effective, they fail to consider the psychological aspects.

Rail seems more permanent and yes, I'll say 'cooler' and somehow less stigmatized than a bus. Businesses along the route know it is there on a more permanent basis and riders, who have a choice feel better and perhaps more secure about it. Public transportation shouldn't be seen as only for those who can't afford other means, although that is obviously an important element, but also as a means to reduce car use and facilitate dense, walkable neighborhoods.

If St. Louis is to truly turn around, these areas need to attract more young Millennials, who want other options. The bones are there, now the city needs to do everything it can to provide attractive density and infrastructure to support an urban climate and this includes streetcars.

I've always wondered about Gravois too, because it is a state route isn't it? Could the city take control and responsibility for it? Gravois is the obvious choice here. Any first streetcar should touch Soulard in my opinion.

Gateway City · PostMar 03, 2014#3502014-03-03T23:18+00:00

You forgot one of the most important parts of what makes streetcars better than buses: they're faster. That is, if they have their own lane, i.e. down a median such as on DeBaliviere, which cars can not use. They zip right past traffic as long as they have their own lane.

Northside-Southside Metrolink

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