urbanSTL

goat314 wrote:The problem is EWGateway has concluded that NS is the top transit priority for the region.

I don't think that's quite the case Goat. Back in '07-'08 EWGateway identified NS as the preferred local alternative for Metrolink expansion in St. Louis City, not for the region. They were pretty clear about that when the study was concluded. The current study underway by EWGateway - which apparently will publish results shortly - is to select a preferred local alternative in St. Louis County. EWGateway doesn't have - and is unlikely to ever have - a preferred regional alternative.

Despite my more sympathetic stance toward Stenger and a Daniel Boone/Westport extension, I think everything 'gasm said is dead right.

They're going to announce shortly which one(s) they're going to study, not the results of the study

East-West Gateway will do the corridor studies. Stenger said he expects to announce in the coming days which route or routes that will be examined further in a county-funded study.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 9b06a.html

wabash wrote:

goat314 wrote:The problem is EWGateway has concluded that NS is the top transit priority for the region.

I don't think that's quite the case Goat. Back in '07-'08 EWGateway identified NS as the preferred local alternative for Metrolink expansion in St. Louis City, not for the region. They were pretty clear about that when the study was concluded. The current study underway by EWGateway - which apparently will publish results shortly - is to select a preferred local alternative in St. Louis County. EWGateway doesn't have - and is unlikely to ever have - a preferred regional alternative.

Despite my more sympathetic stance toward Stenger and a Daniel Boone/Westport extension, I think everything 'gasm said is dead right.

The 2045 transportation plan identified NS as the only tier 1 light rail line in the region. With that said, I too do not have the disdain for Westport as many others have. I actually think that line has many merits and deserves a shot. I think Westport should be built after a North-South Metrolink line. It is also important to remember that many polls, from Moving Transit Forward, to EWGateway polls, to CMT polls, have all asked the transit riding public, what the transit priority would be and overwhelmingly it came out for North South Metrolink on every poll.

Bit dated but St.Louis Fed says just buy poor riders a Prius instead of building light rail.
(also a bit dated is Metros farebox recovery, its under 20% now (was 28% according to this report)
https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications ... boondoggle

There's only 7,700 poor riders? I have a tough time believing that. And subsidies for light rail aren't just for poor people, they are for all people.

I get the author's point, but articles like these are frustrating. They make a hypothetical argument while ignoring practicality. Yep, paying for priuses is cheaper than light rail subsidies for 7,700 poor people. But that ignores SO many other factors, let alone the silliness of buying 7,700 priuses.

i think the silliest part is that its coming from the Fed Bank and not the silly factory known as the Show Me Institute

My concerns with this line is for the cost involved, what will you actually get in terms of a product in relation to service quality issues. If the average speed on a line isn't that high and isn't much improvement over a bus, it wouldn't make much sense to spend that much on this due to cost and would be better served with improved buses along said line. Since something more akin to a tram than the current Metrolink lines would seem impractical due to length, since it would take too long from either end to downtown.

The Westport line also is a line that depending on setup at least mostly if not fully uses railroad ROW, which would improve speed and cost. There are versions of Northside-Southside that could do that. I prefer at least for Southside segment using the rail ROW that is there (would be west of line they defined), and compliment it with improved bus routes tying it together. Northside could have some interesting alternative alignments based on rail lines too along with how close to the riverfront and its jobs do you want to go vs the neighborhoods.

Also, with the way the streets are set up, could it be possible to utilize that by shifting traffic patterns or say have the line run a block off the main road to have less traffic impact? (possibly even closing that road to vehicles?) Though in some cases the corridors tend to be diagonal roads that cut through the grid, but its an idea.

dbInSouthCity wrote:Bit dated but St.Louis Fed says just buy poor riders a Prius instead of building light rail.
(also a bit dated is Metros farebox recovery, its under 20% now (was 28% according to this report)
https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications ... boondoggle

Oh my God, this is such a terrible article.

No privately owned system would ever be operated (or even be built) with such a dismal balance sheet.

Government should only do things that the private sector can do profitably! Therefore, the government should never do anything unless the private sector is already doing it.

Computed using data from "A New Way to Grow," page 2, http://www.cmt-stl.org. Daily ridership on MetroLink is roughly 55,000. The analysis makes the assumption that all MetroLink riders without cars are considered poor (about 14 percent of all riders). There is evidence in support of this assumption. Roughly 30 percent of MetroLink riders earn less than $25,000 a year (Citizens for Modern Transit, page 5). According to the 2004 Federal Poverty Guidelines ( http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml), a family of two earning less than $12,490 is considered poor. The average family size in the United States is 2.5 persons. Thus, of the 30 percent of MetroLink riders making less than $25,000 a year, on average roughly half (15 percent) are officially poor, which is close to the 14 percent approximation used in the table.

What.

Way to estimate the number of economic actors in the tail by multiplying averages, Fed.

There are about 90k people below the poverty line in the city and 110k in the county.

So is there any chance of the DeSoto rail alignment happening or is that just a hopeful idea a la Gravois? I haven't followed the story on where it's come from. I'm curious if the real players are considering it.

^I'm taking the latest by county as per link below pretty much confirms N-S as a hopeful idea at this point.

My desired outcome in near term. County extends Cross County because studies show no real good choices other then build upon what you already have. In other words, invest less money on a short extension of existing line instead of trying to create half a spider web on the county side. Of course I have no clue what any study will justify but at end of the day they are subjective so county can find someone to justify Daniel Boone

In the meantime. city leadership gets serious about going after north south component of the St Louis streetcar with vision for a future east west central corridor extension. Heck, I would support city favoring a county metrolink expansion if they could agreement on streetcar system within the city limits & N-S be kept on long term plan. I'm of the believe a city streetcar system can compliment metrolink and future N-S.

At this point the County and City from Dooley, Slay and now Stenger have wasted a good six years since Prop A was passed. Time to move forward somehow someway.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 3ea4f.html

Updated at 11:21 a.m. that the three studies will cost about $3 million, and Stenger will request the County Council approve using money from Proposition A sales tax proceeds to fund them.

St. Louis County will study three potential MetroLink expansions, none of which are the north-south line, County Executive Steve Stenger said Thursday.

From what I've seen there just isn't enough people in the city to support light rail expansion as much as I'd like to see it happen. There's just not enough people. The city needs Asians and Latinos badly.

What have you seen?

wabash wrote:What have you seen?

What do you mean? I've taken a lot of subways and light rails in a lot cities from Boston to New York to Philly to Houston to Los Angeles and I just feel there isn't enough people in St. Louis city proper to support it.

It would be a waste of money to extend any further south than 270. Would someone use it? Yes. Would it be worth 100million? No.

Also, what a short sighted disaster to alter the route for NGA. The alternative route would pull far away from neighborhoods that are doing better, but need an anchor (Old North). I'd rather Old North gain 3000 residents from new development than temporarily serve 3000 employees. Also the original alignment could have a stop 3 blocks down St. Louis Ave from the NE corner of NGA. That's a simple walk down a fairly intact stretch of N. STL.


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Alex Ihnen wrote:Apparently this is the N/S route the city wants to study. IMO, it's important to note that it extends well into St. Louis County. The rhetoric around this whole thing is silly, but hopefully we get moving on the next phase of whatever's next soon.

Alex, I don't think the question is that it doesn't extend far enough to the city once you build every single mile. But it becomes of cost, what can you realistically build out on Prop A and what future funding will take. To build out light rail you posted is at least another bond or sales tax measure at a minimum.

Ii think you also get to a point of silliness when it is all or nothing position by respective leadership resulting in nothing.

leeharveyawesome wrote:From what I've seen there just isn't enough people in the city to support light rail expansion as much as I'd like to see it happen.

leeharveyawesome wrote:I've taken a lot of subways and light rails in a lot cities from Boston to New York to Philly to Houston to Los Angeles and I just feel there isn't enough people in St. Louis city proper to support it.

dredger wrote:Then Light rail/commuter shouldn't have been built in Salt Lake City/Denver/Twin Cities among other places if the only basis is density.

Exactly Dredge. Or San Diego, Charlotte, Sacramento (pop. 485,000), Pittsburgh (pop. 304,000) and Norfolk (pop. 245,000) which have all recently built, expanded, or are expanding their light rail systems within their city limits.

But you don't need to look that far to see that light rail expansion is possible in significantly lower population municipalities than New York, Boston, or St. Louis County. St. Clair County (pop. about 260,000 at the time) completed two Metrolink extensions in 2001 and 2003.

Phase I cost $360 million, or about $525 million in today's dollars.
Phase II cost $75 million, or about $100 million in today's dollars.

Admittedly, those projects were executed in much more generous times for federal and state (Illinois) funding. The current funding environment is more challenging, but doesn't mean it's impossible to expand light rail within the City (which has 50,000 more people than St. Clair County). The key is pursuing projects that are the right scale and expense to be viable. If St. Louis City wanted to expand Metrolink up to St. Louis Ave., Parnell or maybe even North Grand to serve the NGIA and the near north, or Gravois & Jefferson to serve the near south, or down the UPRR to S. Kingshighway or maybe even Chippewa & Gravois, they might be able to take it on.

I'd love to see N-S Metrolink, but it's now a potentially $2+ billion project that the County and State won't support and that 315,000 people can't be expected to bond out. A more realistic and productive approach would be pursuing smaller extensions that fit into a broader vision, that the City could take on itself and continue to add onto (as St. Clair did with their Phase II to Scott AFB). N-S is a regional project that, as Stenger made crudely clear, the region isn't ready to support. Until that support exists the City should take on Metrolink extension projects that are scaled to where if the County doesn't support them, the City can tell the County to go **** itself and move ahead with them anyways. St. Clair County did it. St. Louis City can too.