urbanSTL

Not sure why the City would pursue a 55/70 alignment Goat. I suppose it'd always help Downtown to express people in from park-n-ride stations, but the return on investment along the line would be minimal. In other words, such an alignment would have limited benefit for City residents.

DeSoto/UPRR seems to strike a better balance though.


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^ I think its about striking a balance between cost, speed, and development opportunity. I think it is pretty safe to say that at this point the N-S line as we know it is nonexistent. The final product could still run the streets, but if the county is expected to be a partner, we may be looking at a Metrolink alignment that operates more like our existing system, meaning in a dedicated ROW. The inconvenient truth is that if a North County resident works to get to South County Center, they are more concerned about getting to their destination in an hour or less than how much TOD a new line creates. With that said, I dont know if I necessarily agree that running Metrolink down I-55 or I-70 would not stabilize the neighborhoods adjacent to the highway. Depending where the stations are placed, it could make a huge difference. Especially if stations veer off from the highway ROW at station stops.

DeSoto would work best. I want tight edges though. The ditch easements around the tracks look awful and are inefficient. I would want it to look like metro currently does along Forest Park Pkwy. Build a wall around the tracks, level surrounding land, and sale some heavy duty TOD.


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There's a lot to turn one's stomach here, although I kind of like that they're fighting over who gets Metrolink first. His opposition is misplaced, but it's a little encouraging that he's willing to fight to bring Metrolink to the County. Better than the very likely alternative of a County Exec not taking any interest in Metrolink AND not supporting The City.

This is kind of like kids on Christmas: Stenger's the bully big brother, jealous of his younger brother's cool new toy, so he's throwing a temper tantrum and shouting "NOOOOO FAIR. ME FIRST."

hopefully this will just end up making Stenger look stupid and selfish to everyone outside of St. Louis County.

It does seem that a lot of this is based on differing opinion on what the design parameters for a metrolink line should be in regards to grade separation and dedicated right of way. Personally I would prefer using some rail right of ways where possible since they go through various corridors that would be idea for TOD, connect job centers and neighborhoods, and allow higher speeds which can help in terms of frequency relative to number of trains.

Stengy is a complete idiot!
If he thinks that the region isn't already divided then i don't know what kind of lemonade he's been drinking
N/S route is clearly the best economical route through the region as far as potential growth.
A continued dying urban core precludes to a continued dying region and a continued divided region exacerbates our sad inability for growth
Our region has been stagnant long enough
Get it right Stengy!

^ I would argue that Slay is right there with him. I think he overplayed his transit hand when city retained NGIA The hard political reality from my perspective is the next metrolink extension was going to be in the county the day that Prop A passed (for which I voted yes and as a county resident at the time). I really don't see how he was going to change things starting with the tweek and might have made things more difficult going forward because he made county leadership even more defensive.

I'm also at a loss why Slay has never put much weight behind St. Louis streetcar, first with its central corridor alignment and then revised alignment with north extension. Heck, even McKee as part of his northside plan at one point suggested streetcar on Jefferson Ave alignment. The current N-S alignment in the city to me screams a streetcar. You can offer service from North County via a well designed BRT and a metrolink extension to the south favoring UP-Desoto right of way that would compliment a city streetcar alignment.

I hate to say it, but I'm coming around to Stenger's side on this after reading the comments in the P-D.

The results of the E-W Gateway study of possible County routes are supposed to come out within a few days. Stenger's going to want to rally support around it, get the County constituent's on board (which is always a tough sell), couch it is a fulfillment of the promise that was/is Prop A, and ultimately his goal is to give it the best chance of getting built (which is commendable).

I applaud the rejuvenated effort for N-S, but it really does sound like if Slay had waited a month or two they wouldn't be stepping on the County's toes, and could have moved forward with more support for both projects (or at least an abstention from the County and not a letter denigrating it). Not that Slay should be completely deferential to the County and always agree to take a back seat, but given the timelines in question, I think Slay went into this with blinders. Yes, N-S would be great for the City, and the County, and the Region, but did Slay really think the County would wholly embrace a $2.2 billion project that mostly runs through the City, no part of which was included in the study they just commissioned? That's just naive.

I really hope Stenger is just throwing a temper tantrum about not being consulted enough, but eventually gets on board after other routes are debated a bit further. The idea that a Westport line should take priority is absurd. Westport is awful. That would be throwing good money after bad.

wabash wrote: The results of the E-W Gateway study of possible County routes are supposed to come out within a few days.

Sounded to me that the announcement of which route they were going to study was forthcoming.

dredger wrote:The current N-S alignment in the city to me screams a streetcar. You can offer service from North County via a well designed BRT and a metrolink extension to the south favoring UP-Desoto right of way that would compliment a city streetcar alignment.

I think the N-S alignment that extends all the way to Loughborough or Bayless is too long for a street car. I'm not as familiar with the northside, but that looks like it would be a very long ride as well. The primary purpose of any fixed rail public transit should be to get people from residential areas to employment centers in a time and manner that, on balance, is more convenient than a private car. If we go the street car route, I'd like to see (1) a N-S line up and down Grand from just south of Tower Grove Park to Fairgrounds Park and (2) a S line along Broadway from the A-B brewery to downtown, and (3) a N line along Tucker/13th to Old North/St. Louis Place.

south compton wrote:

dredger wrote:The current N-S alignment in the city to me screams a streetcar. You can offer service from North County via a well designed BRT and a metrolink extension to the south favoring UP-Desoto right of way that would compliment a city streetcar alignment.

I think the N-S alignment that extends all the way to Loughborough or Bayless is too long for a street car. I'm not as familiar with the northside, but that looks like it would be a very long ride as well. The primary purpose of any fixed rail public transit should be to get people from residential areas to employment centers in a time and manner that, on balance, is more convenient than a private car. If we go the street car route, I'd like to see (1) a N-S line up and down Grand from just south of Tower Grove Park to Fairgrounds Park and (2) a S line along Broadway from the A-B brewery to downtown, and (3) a N line along Tucker/13th to Old North/St. Louis Place.

I agree, the street running route would have to be done in the same manner as Boston or Dallas to make it efficient. It would have to have minimal street crossings and perfectly synchronized with streetlights or go underground or elevated at major intersections to be time effective. I also think the current alignment has way too many stops if its going to run in the street.

It appears that behind the scenes there will be or has been serious political posturing from not only political leaders but major companies and/or organizations that want their own stations if N-S is built. For example (meaning take with a grain of salt). If A-B wants a station, or Sigma-Aldrich, you better believe that the south line will be running along I-55 at Arsenal and Broadway. Again, if Lumiere Casino or any major players on the industrial riverfront want a station, you better get used to seeing Metrolink on I-70. With that said, this is all hearsay and what I'm piecing together from my own speculation, past rumors, and conversations I've had with people in the know. Remember when I said that Westport would be dubbed the "Green Line" and Danforth was pushing it. Then we see a master plan for the plant center alluding that a Metro line could pass through the northern boundary of the planning area. Hate to admit it, but our corporate overlords and local investors, will decide where the next route is going to go.

Stenger is either bargaining for something or politically posturing, because he feels left out, but even though Slay can be a piece of work. I doubt Slay has not consulted with Stenger on N-S Metrolink. Also, notice the convenient timing of the "report" for the county line. Tony Messenger has recently alluded that many regional leaders and organization want to get something done similar to Denver, a multi-county tax dedicated to building out our transit system and control the airport. He also said that Westport has zero chance of getting completed before NS Metrolink for one reason, the Feds have already set up a promise zone that gives federal preference for transit funding to North County and the City of St. Louis. Only way the county will get Westport is if it enters an agreement with city to build both lines at the same time, goes at it alone, or waits until NS Metrolink is done. I'm pretty sure Stenger knows that, so I'm guessing he is either trying to negotiate something or wants to kill Metrolink outright. The decision has been made, NS will be next or its nothing. The promize zone, the regional chamber, ewgateway, metro, the city, the partnership have all given the nod to NS.

stlgasm wrote:Any way you slice it, Stenger's vindictive actions are absolutely shameful, ignorant and destructive. It's about time we call out this "regionalism" BS when we see it. The notion that every part of our metro area carries equal weight is absurd. "REGIONALISM" means recognizing that the CITY OF ST. LOUIS is the center of the entire region, and the prioritizing transit connections in the urban core should not be viewed as a personal snub or a power play, but COMMON SENSE.

This whole debacle is a glaring reminder of why St. Louis has become the poster child of metropolitan dysfunction and ineptitude. There are so many smart, progressive urban-minded people in St. Louis who get what makes a city a CITY, but this fundamental inability to think big on behalf of our elected leadership (with a few notable exceptions) makes us look like a bunch of bumbling yahoos in the eyes of the rest of the country. N-S Metro is a NO-BRAINER for a thousand reasons that all of us on this forum understand. Almost any other large metropolitan government would've concluded that on Day 1.

The problem is EWGateway has concluded that NS is the top transit priority for the region. We are just missing the key ingredient...FUNDING. Unfortunately, because of our regional fragmentation the County has the money, not the city, and unlike most metropolitan areas the city isn't the seat of the largest urban county, a little parochial city that might as well be a gated community called Clayton is and since Stenger's office is in Clayton, he feels that he should get the final say of where the next line is built, which almost certainly means Westport to his office in Clayton, the de facto political hub of the region. The quagmire Stenger will find himself in and what makes his assertions even more ignorant is that the promise zone designation in North County and St. Louis City (coupled with the Ferguson Commission) almost ensures that the region will not get any federal funding to build any other line (especially one that services an affluent, low density community like Westport) until North South Metrolink is built. So in a way, Stenger will not get his line and can pretty much sabotage NS until he is removed from office, setting the timeline back at least another 2 years or more.

Is it possible to build a streetcar style line for less than what Metrolink would be? Is $60 million per mile construction cost possible?

So many hot takes and so much speculation and guessing. Simmer down folks. Simmer. Most of is is very wrong.

dbInSouthCity wrote:So many hot takes and so much speculation and guessing. Simmer down folks. Simmer. Most of is is very wrong.

Please DB, enlighten us.