I am assuming some type of an appeals court.
^ Alex, had to think about my comment. I guess I was thinking in terms of the state supremen court as the basis for the original arguments against McKee was that he had no defined plan or benefit related to the TIF due to the scale of the TIF itself or at least how I understand it.
A question to ponder, if Mckee is struck down could you legitimately argue that TIFs are unconstitutional? McKee's TIF went through all the governmental hoops as required by law just as other TIF's. Just becasuse the scale is much grander or doesn't seem feasible it doesn't mean it necessarily a better or worse plan then what Sunset Hill residents and now Hadley have been dragged through. In this context, I think McKee could see a favorable ruling.
As far as the next round of arguments, the state supreme court will either hold up lower court decision or reverse. Final decision either way and no more appeals if not mistaken.
A question to ponder, if Mckee is struck down could you legitimately argue that TIFs are unconstitutional? McKee's TIF went through all the governmental hoops as required by law just as other TIF's. Just becasuse the scale is much grander or doesn't seem feasible it doesn't mean it necessarily a better or worse plan then what Sunset Hill residents and now Hadley have been dragged through. In this context, I think McKee could see a favorable ruling.
As far as the next round of arguments, the state supreme court will either hold up lower court decision or reverse. Final decision either way and no more appeals if not mistaken.
The argument before the MO supreme court is whether what the Board of Aldermen passed and Mayor signed in 2009 meets the criteria in the State's TIF statute, not whether TIF's are good or bad, or whether this one was a good or bad idea. A key point is that the state statute refers to a "plan" being required as well as referencing the financial ability to complete the plan. The argument against is that what is attached to the local TIF ordinance "The Northside Plan" is way too broad, non specific, and not grounded in financial reality, therefore doesn't meet the criteria the state sets for when a muni can use a TIF.
The bill introduced today by Hubbard is that the "Bottle District" be added to the "Northside Regeneration Area", therefore making it eligible for the state Distressed Area Land Assemblage tax credit, which means the state would pay McKee 50%, or $1.5 million, of the $3 million he supposedly paid for the Bottle District earlier this year, plus 100% of carrying costs. The DALA is perhaps the worst tax credit law passed in the country, and when challenged in court, the court basically said that no citizen had standing to bring a case.
The original McKee TIF is before the MO Supreme Court in November. Adding the Bottle District, while a bad idea, shouldn't effect that case, as the case is about the original TIF, and the Bottle District would still have its own, separate TIF, within the Northside area.
Today's bill is just another money grab from taxpayers by McKee to shore up his bad financial situation.
Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman
The bill introduced today by Hubbard is that the "Bottle District" be added to the "Northside Regeneration Area", therefore making it eligible for the state Distressed Area Land Assemblage tax credit, which means the state would pay McKee 50%, or $1.5 million, of the $3 million he supposedly paid for the Bottle District earlier this year, plus 100% of carrying costs. The DALA is perhaps the worst tax credit law passed in the country, and when challenged in court, the court basically said that no citizen had standing to bring a case.
The original McKee TIF is before the MO Supreme Court in November. Adding the Bottle District, while a bad idea, shouldn't effect that case, as the case is about the original TIF, and the Bottle District would still have its own, separate TIF, within the Northside area.
Today's bill is just another money grab from taxpayers by McKee to shore up his bad financial situation.
Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman
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This is a little strange. From the PD article on Alderman Hubbard's plan to merge the Northside and Bottle District:
Ald. Tammika Hubbard declined to answer questions about the bill that would merge redevelopment projects. Before she won a special election last December, her opponents said her father’s position made her too close to McKee’s controversial development plant.
When a reporter asked her about the bill Friday, she threatened to call the city marshal’s office, which handles security at City Hall.
“Will you please step out of my office, or should I call the marshal?” Hubbard told a reporter in the office area that adjoins the aldermanic chamber.
For her to be so defensive over nothing makes it seem as if she's up to no good in this deal.Mark Groth wrote:This is a little strange. From the PD article on Alderman Hubbard's plan to merge the Northside and Bottle District:
Ald. Tammika Hubbard declined to answer questions about the bill that would merge redevelopment projects. Before she won a special election last December, her opponents said her father’s position made her too close to McKee’s controversial development plant.
When a reporter asked her about the bill Friday, she threatened to call the city marshal’s office, which handles security at City Hall.
“Will you please step out of my office, or should I call the marshal?” Hubbard told a reporter in the office area that adjoins the aldermanic chamber.
At least is says "urban style" homes will be built. 79 houses near ONSL and the work being done in Hyde Park could really help put a strong near northside together.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... b0a15.html
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... b0a15.html
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Frankly I've lost the ability to be optimistic about Northside at this point.
Is McKee's thought process possibly that by, even at this late point, coming up with some kind of plan, that he can sway the Supreme Court's decision? One of those, "but, but, look see now we have a real strategy and you don't want us to do nothing, do you????"
It's not the worst plan I ever heard; I just can't stand McKee at this point. He couldn't even get the Clemens Mansion done.
Is McKee's thought process possibly that by, even at this late point, coming up with some kind of plan, that he can sway the Supreme Court's decision? One of those, "but, but, look see now we have a real strategy and you don't want us to do nothing, do you????"
It's not the worst plan I ever heard; I just can't stand McKee at this point. He couldn't even get the Clemens Mansion done.
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^That's the vibe I have been getting.
It *appears* as though they are kind of flying by night attempting to dangle as little as possible out there to win the TIF. I like the ideas, and hope he is in it for the right motives, but I cannot help but get a sketchy feeling out of the whole process so far.
It *appears* as though they are kind of flying by night attempting to dangle as little as possible out there to win the TIF. I like the ideas, and hope he is in it for the right motives, but I cannot help but get a sketchy feeling out of the whole process so far.
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Will NorthSide homes look more like St. Charles or the Vatterot homes in the Gate District?
Here are 3 of the suburban builders cited in the PD article:
http://www.fischerandfrichtel.com/
http://www.rolwesco.com/
http://www.gatewayhomebuilders.com/
I couldn't find websites for Rubicon or x3. Click on their websites to see the work on display. Let's hope they know how to build homes that will be around in 30 years and mix in well with the original fabric of St. Louis Place (which was once one of STL's most beautiful neighborhoods). I would be more excited if UIC or some other more urban-minded firms were mentioned.
I still hope for the best.
Here are 3 of the suburban builders cited in the PD article:
http://www.fischerandfrichtel.com/
http://www.rolwesco.com/
http://www.gatewayhomebuilders.com/
I couldn't find websites for Rubicon or x3. Click on their websites to see the work on display. Let's hope they know how to build homes that will be around in 30 years and mix in well with the original fabric of St. Louis Place (which was once one of STL's most beautiful neighborhoods). I would be more excited if UIC or some other more urban-minded firms were mentioned.
I still hope for the best.
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If someone could post an aerial of where this general location for the homes is that would be great. I haz no skillz.
http://www.designsbyx3.com/Mark Groth wrote:I couldn't find websites for Rubicon or x3.
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^ Eh. Their work could be a lot worse. Should be a lot better.
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Their "Courtyard House" is truly one of the uglier things I've ever seen: http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... ard-house/urbanpioneer wrote:^ Eh. Their work could be a lot worse. Should be a lot better.
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Google Maps link (St. Louis Ave just west of Florrisant): http://goo.gl/maps/7oXY1roger wyoming II wrote:If someone could post an aerial of where this general location for the homes is that would be great. I haz no skillz.
It's better than the mullet houses of a few years ago. And it appears where they're using siding, that it's at least solid-core siding and not low-quality vinyl (at least the best I can tell from the pictures.insomniacafe wrote:Their "Courtyard House" is truly one of the uglier things I've ever seen: http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... ard-house/urbanpioneer wrote:^ Eh. Their work could be a lot worse. Should be a lot better.
The Wyoming House seems to be a more successful, if traditional, exterior design:
http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... ing-house/
Edit: and the Loft House isn't bad at all:
http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... oft-house/
-RBB
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Now those look great, I can get behind that.Alex Ihnen wrote:It's better than the mullet houses of a few years ago. And it appears where they're using siding, that it's at least solid-core siding and not low-quality vinyl (at least the best I can tell from the pictures.
The Wyoming House seems to be a more successful, if traditional, exterior design:
http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... ing-house/
Edit: and the Loft House isn't bad at all:
http://www.designsbyx3.com/our-work/res ... oft-house/
-RBB
Some of these remind me of the McRee town/Botanical Grove homes. Nice houses mostly, a few duds. They'll all be immensely better once some trees mature.
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I don't think that the Courtyard house is that bad. I don't like how the houses shown on X3's website appear to be spaced too far apart, however.
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STLtoday.com - City Aldermen have given their blessings to the Bottle District officially being included in NorthSide Regeneration
Source: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 3a04c.html
This is not yet done. This was support by the Aldermen's Housing, Urban Development and Zoning Committee; next, it will be taken before the entire Board of Aldermen for a final vote.
From the article:
The MO Supremes will hear deliberations on NorthSide Regeneration, and its TIF, on November 28th.
Source: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 3a04c.html
This is not yet done. This was support by the Aldermen's Housing, Urban Development and Zoning Committee; next, it will be taken before the entire Board of Aldermen for a final vote.
From the article:
The article also points out Alderwoman Hubbard's potential conflict of interest in the site, Alderman Ogilve's measures to make sure such potential conflicts don't reappear in the future, and mentions the Rams possibly utilizing the site.... Critics worry that its just a rushed grab for state tax credits, and urged patience, especially ahead of a Missouri Supreme Court hearing in just a few weeks on NorthSide's huge financing plan.
"I'd suggest that we wait until we have a Supreme Court ruling," said Ald. Scott Oglivie, 24th Ward. "In the meantime these folks can proceed with the Bottle District in whatever way they choose."
The measure may help McKee tap roughly $1.5 million in state Distressed Areas Land Assemblage tax credits, said its sponsor, Ald. Tammika Hubbard, 5th-Ward. The credits pay McKee back for half the cost of buying land in his NorthSide project, but only if the land is officially part of the NorthSide redevelopment area. He paid $3 million to buy the Bottle District in December. He has already collected about $30 million in credits, some of which he must repay if the project loses its lawsuit.
Several aldermen had questions about the timing of this move, and how it would affect the two projects. When asked directly if the measure was designed to help McKee get credits, Hubbard said: "To my understanding it is."
The MO Supremes will hear deliberations on NorthSide Regeneration, and its TIF, on November 28th.
^ Gone Corporate, interested in your take on this one. Of course, I see it three ways
1) Ideally, nothing grandiose as initially renderings but a strong residential/mixed use project that continues the growth of downtown/North St. Louis residential with a, I dare say, rendering showing a blvd where I-70 exists. With McKee bringing in a decent architect and THF connection delivers some commercial leases on property that faces the dome/convention center. Heck, I can see this happening before BPV.
2) What McKee will propose, a THF big box store with a ready made level lot that just needs to pave over and offers tailgating opportunities ten times a year. Call it Rams Plaza and it will be argued that it will compliment not take away from the other multiple open spaces already available in downtown.
3) McKee closes on $3 million sale, sells the $1.5 tax credit for cash as they are intended for and turns around and sells it to CVC, say 8 to 10 million, pays back the tax credit (not a bad flip in my opinion). Clayco scores a big dome expansion construction contract and subs out a good chunk to McKee's sons
1) Ideally, nothing grandiose as initially renderings but a strong residential/mixed use project that continues the growth of downtown/North St. Louis residential with a, I dare say, rendering showing a blvd where I-70 exists. With McKee bringing in a decent architect and THF connection delivers some commercial leases on property that faces the dome/convention center. Heck, I can see this happening before BPV.
2) What McKee will propose, a THF big box store with a ready made level lot that just needs to pave over and offers tailgating opportunities ten times a year. Call it Rams Plaza and it will be argued that it will compliment not take away from the other multiple open spaces already available in downtown.
3) McKee closes on $3 million sale, sells the $1.5 tax credit for cash as they are intended for and turns around and sells it to CVC, say 8 to 10 million, pays back the tax credit (not a bad flip in my opinion). Clayco scores a big dome expansion construction contract and subs out a good chunk to McKee's sons
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dredger wrote:3) McKee closes on $3 million sale, sells the $1.5 tax credit for cash as they are intended for and turns around and sells it to CVC, say 8 to 10 million, pays back the tax credit (not a bad flip in my opinion). Clayco scores a big dome expansion construction contract and subs out a good chunk to McKee's sons
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Dredger: I don’t think we’ll hear anything until after the MO Supremes hear the TIF case in late November and then give their ruling. Until then, we’re just spitballing on what may happen. While your third option sure looks possible, I wouldn’t be overly surprised if we hear of the Rams’ plans for the Edward Jones Dome ahead of what will happen to what used to be called “The Bottle District”. After all, the most recent iteration of what the Jones Dome could be, the latest CVC schematics, don’t even involve TBD.
That said, I think it could be another tool in the retention of the Rams, and a great one at that. It’s a huge footprint of land directly adjacent to the Jones Dome, and I bet Stan K would love to act on it. If it came down to (a) having opportunities to cooperatively develop this land or (b) lose the team, then I’d highly bet we’d see a Kroenke/McKee joint venture (and yes, my fingers shook a bit typing that).
Take the Rams out of it, though, and I see this being a full continuation on McKee’s original plans for NorthSide Regeneration, particularly the clustered development envisioned for the Missouri side of the New Mississippi River Bridge. Add-in TBD, and I’d think it would veer towards being a more uniform connection, and incorporation, between North City and Downtown. How exactly that plays out, you’ll have to ask an architect.
I don’t see a big box retailer. It wouldn’t match the highly urban environment, and I don’t think THF does urban projects.
*Except for the Plaza in Clayton, and the Clayco/THF JV development mess that spun out of it
No matter what, I highly believe that all previous renderings for TBD (those shown already through the years) are dead, dismembered, drawn, quartered, cremated, and buried under 6’ of dirt and cement.
That said, I think it could be another tool in the retention of the Rams, and a great one at that. It’s a huge footprint of land directly adjacent to the Jones Dome, and I bet Stan K would love to act on it. If it came down to (a) having opportunities to cooperatively develop this land or (b) lose the team, then I’d highly bet we’d see a Kroenke/McKee joint venture (and yes, my fingers shook a bit typing that).
Take the Rams out of it, though, and I see this being a full continuation on McKee’s original plans for NorthSide Regeneration, particularly the clustered development envisioned for the Missouri side of the New Mississippi River Bridge. Add-in TBD, and I’d think it would veer towards being a more uniform connection, and incorporation, between North City and Downtown. How exactly that plays out, you’ll have to ask an architect.
I don’t see a big box retailer. It wouldn’t match the highly urban environment, and I don’t think THF does urban projects.
*Except for the Plaza in Clayton, and the Clayco/THF JV development mess that spun out of it
No matter what, I highly believe that all previous renderings for TBD (those shown already through the years) are dead, dismembered, drawn, quartered, cremated, and buried under 6’ of dirt and cement.