Just curious how are those numbers gathered.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2020in 2018 St.Charles added 6400 new residents from outside Missouri/USA...City of St.Louis added 14,200.
68% of St.Charles new 2018 residents are from Missouri/Region while 51% of City's.....basically St.Charles is doing nothing to contribute to the growth of the region and its just costing us extra in new roads, bridges, power lines, hospitals etc.
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Its the 2018 ACS Mirgration by county, Table B07003
There is another that shows movement of people between counties in the region and surprisingly the City was +291 over St.Charles from 2013-2017. But that confirms a cycle of City to STL County to St.Charles to City (young people from St.Charles)
There is another that shows movement of people between counties in the region and surprisingly the City was +291 over St.Charles from 2013-2017. But that confirms a cycle of City to STL County to St.Charles to City (young people from St.Charles)
City is punching above its weight when it comes to being the landing spot for new to the state residents from rest of the US and abroad.
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Off-topic here but it's not like our airport is really that lacking, all things considered. Realistically, we only need a single European destination, as that's more than enough to connect with the rest of Europe more easily and it's likely all we're bound to get unless a secondary carrier decides to capitalize on demand, such as Condor. On top of that, there's only a few domestic non-stops that are missing nowadays, and provided the 737 MAX gets back into the air and COVID-19 doesn't destroy the aviation industry, I fully expect the last remaining domestic holes to be filled by one (or more) of the airport's airlines over the coming years. Other than that, the airport is continually showing growth, reducing its debt, putting money into capital investments, and lowering fees. In addition, the airport has a lot of excess passenger and cargo capacity that positions it well in the coming years as a reliever city and potential logistics hub.
More regional cooperation as a whole is needed much more than focusing on the airport, which has been doing fine.
More regional cooperation as a whole is needed much more than focusing on the airport, which has been doing fine.
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Long time forum lurker, first time poster here. I appreciate many of your contributions, db, but I must say these sort of posts from you aren't helpful.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2020just because you say the race card is played doesnt mean that the point is in valid, you can avoid it all you want but it doesnt make it true.billikens_19 wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2020Those are all valid points. Thank you for presenting them in a mature way without playing the race card.ricke002 wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2020I won't speak for db, but I'm guessing he was suggesting the $$ towards those new roads, bridges, power lines, hospitals etc. would/could be used in already existing populated areas to make them more attractive to potential outside the region residents. A downtown with smoother streets/better transit might be more attractive to a large corporation looking to relocate. A north side with more/better amenities would be an excellent spot for attracting those looking for affordability.
My grandma lived next door to "black neighbors" for years in her neighborhood, without problem. But a few years ago moved to St. Charles County after a burglary, a vandalism case, and an armed robbery of her in her house occurred within the course of two years. She didn't move because she "didn't want black neighbors". She moved for her personal safety to the safest place she could afford after the PTSD of a violent robbery.
Yeah, sure, there are racists out there. But to characterize that as the only or even the principle issue for most people moving away isn't accurate and is counter-productive to our cause of promoting urbanism in St. Louis. There are real quality of life issues here that need to be addressed. They are complicated problems that are very difficult to solve. Just calling everyone "racist" doesn't help anything and causes you to lose credibility.
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Reading back through a lot of negative comments (especially those from 2007-2010) that claimed New Town was dying / never going to be what it was promised to be... and I gotta say that as of today it's proving every one of those comments wrong. Not only are they building new homes at an insane pace (seriously, just drive through the Beach District at some point; there's literally dozens of homes under construction right now with foundations going in for another dozen or so) but the next phase of expansion is coming.
Did some digging based upon the city of St. Charles Development Submittal tool and there is an approved plan on file for the Mertz tract for the next phase. https://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/428/Dev ... Submittals (it won't let me copy a direct link, but you should be able to click on the green dot in this map and get to the same info).
To get a sense of what the Mertz tract will become, the New Town General Assembly has a publicly available information packet (well, at least its available if you google the right search terms - whether or not they intended for it to be public I have no clue). It's dated back from 2016, but the Beach District appears to be building out as depicted in these plans. What was mentioned as being a hold up for the Mertz tract was a required updated FEMA flood plain map. This was expected to be completed in 2020, so its no longer a road block. https://www.ntga.net/wp-content/uploads ... w-Town.pdf
I know many people here dislike New Town for a variety of reasons, but as a development its healthier than ever and is showing no signs of slowing down.
Did some digging based upon the city of St. Charles Development Submittal tool and there is an approved plan on file for the Mertz tract for the next phase. https://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/428/Dev ... Submittals (it won't let me copy a direct link, but you should be able to click on the green dot in this map and get to the same info).
To get a sense of what the Mertz tract will become, the New Town General Assembly has a publicly available information packet (well, at least its available if you google the right search terms - whether or not they intended for it to be public I have no clue). It's dated back from 2016, but the Beach District appears to be building out as depicted in these plans. What was mentioned as being a hold up for the Mertz tract was a required updated FEMA flood plain map. This was expected to be completed in 2020, so its no longer a road block. https://www.ntga.net/wp-content/uploads ... w-Town.pdf
I know many people here dislike New Town for a variety of reasons, but as a development its healthier than ever and is showing no signs of slowing down.
Thanks for the update. I had no idea DPZ had continued doing work for New Town. The Merz expansion doesn't appear to have anything as monumental as the main axis in Phase 1 but it's nice to see them expanding the canals. The planned plaza has some potential but it will all depend on the amount of commercial space planned. I'm still excited to see some 4 or 5 story buildings around the amphitheater some day. I just hope they haven't gotten too attached to that green space as it is.
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They just built a two story (it's really the height of a three story though since it has extremely tall ceilings on each floor) dance studio next to the church. I don't think we'll ever see 5 story buildings built here, but that's all supply/demand based.
Depends on how you define success. What percentage of trips by residents are by car? What is the average VMT per year per capita? Is that higher of lower than St. Charles county and the region? Does the tax productivity of the area cover its long term infrastructure liabilities?
But quincunx, they've apparently updated their FEMA flood plain map. Success!!quincunx wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2021Depends on how you define success. What percentage of trips by residents are by car? What is the average VMT per year per capita? Is that higher of lower than St. Charles county and the region? Does the tax productivity of the area cover its long term infrastructure liabilities?
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Meh, this is the negativity I was talking about. They're doing something right because people keep flocking there.quincunx wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2021Depends on how you define success. What percentage of trips by residents are by car? What is the average VMT per year per capita? Is that higher of lower than St. Charles county and the region? Does the tax productivity of the area cover its long term infrastructure liabilities?
I'm overdue for my annual visit to New Town. I enjoy parking along the canals and just walking around for an hour or so. Every year there's more to see. I wouldn't want to live there now, but I could see myself maybe retiring out there some day.
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I will never knock decent urban form even if it is in the middle of nowhere. Especially when new developments with absolute sh*t urban design is still the norm in the suburbs.
Also I wonder if they can ever find a way to connect to the Katy Trail. It isn't far away would be a great bike connection to downtown St. Charles.
Also I wonder if they can ever find a way to connect to the Katy Trail. It isn't far away would be a great bike connection to downtown St. Charles.
Wall, too bad. Spreading out the region is a bad thing, despite its popularity.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2021Meh, this is the negativity I was talking about. They're doing something right because people keep flocking there.quincunx wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2021Depends on how you define success. What percentage of trips by residents are by car? What is the average VMT per year per capita? Is that higher of lower than St. Charles county and the region? Does the tax productivity of the area cover its long term infrastructure liabilities?
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Why the snark? I get your passionate about pointing out perceived flaws of areas that don't fit your idealistic view, but it's not like 'winning' some forum debate on UrbanSTL is going to magically make New Town disappear and all of their residents move into rehabbed homes in Old North. There's demand for new construction homes in the suburbs and New Town at the very least provides for this using decent urban form.
I was reflecting yours. They might be real flaws. That's why I asked the questions. It's not idealistic to think about how not to contribute to global warning, public safety, and public health when considering how and where places are built nor is evaluating their long term fragility. Those aspects should be a part of what success means.
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But you have to realize that suburban development is going to keep happening. It's not going to stop anytime soon. So instead of pushing back on places like New Town, why not embrace the successes of the urban form concept and maybe we can get more developers to embrace this type of concept moving forward?
This is a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation in my opinion.
This is a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation in my opinion.
I guess that's where we are at an impasse. You're saying "good" and "success" and I'm skeptical. It could be like how people think EVs are good.
There's certainly demand for new suburban housing and that's not going to stop anytime soon. And it's important for the region to accommodate different styles of growth, even if some are less sustainable or efficient from a land use perspective than others. But I wouldn't describe putting that growth in the middle of a flood plain as "good". Buying up parts of a floodplain used for farmland, industrial parks and soccer parks and filling it with thousands of residents and the savings they have in their homes actually seems like a really bad idea.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2021But you have to realize that suburban development is going to keep happening. It's not going to stop anytime soon. So instead of pushing back on places like New Town, why not embrace the successes of the urban form concept and maybe we can get more developers to embrace this type of concept moving forward?
This is a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation in my opinion.
I'm as angry about the sprawling of St. Louis as anyone but criticizing New Town makes no sense to me. I've yet to hear one valid complaint about New Town that doesn't apply to the rest of suburban sprawl. People go on and on about how inauthentic it is as if the crap in O'Fallon is somehow some great cultural artifact.
As for the sprawl and "spreading of resources" or whatever. Whitacre was going to build hundreds of houses there no matter what. You're upset with them for hiring the firm that wrote the book on postmodern sustainable urbanism and building houses on lots 1/4 the size the average of the rest of the county?
As for the sprawl and "spreading of resources" or whatever. Whitacre was going to build hundreds of houses there no matter what. You're upset with them for hiring the firm that wrote the book on postmodern sustainable urbanism and building houses on lots 1/4 the size the average of the rest of the county?
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i don't think anyone is criticizing the form of New Town, and it's not like the rest of suburban sprawl isn't criticized regularly. like the rest, though, New Town is plenty worthy of criticism for, among other things, its part in spreading the region's finite/stagnant resources thinner and thinner which, while leading to financial success for developers and work for designers and architects, has objectively and measurably been killing the region slowly for decades. suggesting that consumerism is "success" and that it's "negativity" to criticize it despite all the evidence of its detriment to the region, the planet, etc. is nonsense.
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Let me reposition this discussion a bit... for those who have issues with New Town, what tangible outcomes do you want? What is your best case outcome moving forward?
I don't know, New Town to me always seemed a bit dystopian, like what you would see in the Truman show. It just feels like this perfect answer for white flight, raise your kids in this absolutely stunning perfect manicured community. I do realize this is St. Charles and the suburban sprawl occurred from white flight, but even St. Charles is slowly starting to diversify. Just to clarify my claim, I don't hate the density, its actually pretty good, perhaps the level of density needed for North City and I hope the project can serve as a model for other more urban community development.
Boy, that's a tough one. It may be fatally flawed. We've seen many places abandoned for the next drive-to place over and over again. There's the flooding threat. There's the vulnerability to gas price shocks. It depends on price floors on housing and transportation to exclude people. If it remains loved by well off people, it will endure, but if the luster tarnishes as buildings and infrastructure ages and taxes go up, and there's the next new exclusionary thing on the edge luring them, it could fall. It won't be red lined by the gov't nor will the state plow a highway through it, so that's a plus. It's a apart of a large municipality and school district, so that's helpful as the weight of mounting liabilities won't be as acute. It could be that the less productive areas of St. Charles will end up depending upon it. It won't have to chase sales taxes on its own. It's probably going to end up like a Crestwood long term than a St. Ann.
Demographic data for the census tract. It managed to become more segregated comparing 2019 to the 2010-14 ACS. Median household income is over $100k.
https://data.news-leader.com/american-c ... 2011/area/
Demographic data for the census tract. It managed to become more segregated comparing 2019 to the 2010-14 ACS. Median household income is over $100k.
https://data.news-leader.com/american-c ... 2011/area/