urbanSTL

So I had a 30 second conversation with two 50-something female co-workers today and they were declaring the highway 40 project to be a disaster: "It will be absolute gridlock - there's no where for people to drive - what a disaster - how unecessary - etc." When I mentioned that it will work out just fine, people will adjust and getting it done in ~1yr for each section will be fantastic, not to mention that Chicago, Boston, just-about-every-other-city has had larger projects and somehow survived, one of the women actually pinched my cheek and said, "Oh how cute, how old are you again?" What :hell: ? I really wanted to slap her - I guess it's true that I'm not old enough to declare something a failure before it starts.

^Hahaha Grover. I feel your pain.



Seriously, once people adjust and find new routes it will be fine. Sure commutes will be longer, but St. Louis won't shut down. I suspect the biggest challenge will be the evening commute when there is an evening ball game.

^ Oh yeah - they predicted the "complete closing" of downtown - as if people from Chesterfield are the reason there's anything downtown :hell: ! They also didn't think the Cards would sell out as much :hell: :hell: .



For another time and another topic: Many people think that for downtown (and the city) to be successful that Chesterfield, St. Charles and Wentzville will have to move downtown. They simply cannot see east of Lindbergh - let along Skinker and (gasp) Grand! Every time I hear something like "I would never shop downtown," or "there's no way I'd move to the city," I get a little ill. Now I take as many opportunities as I can to say "I could never live in the County," or "How far do you have to drive to get to a grocery store?," or "Do you ever take a quick walk through a world-class zoo when you're on a short walk from home!?!?!"

Yeah, whenever people say they could never live in the city, I quickly say that I could never live in the county.



My usual responses are things like, you can have TGI Fridays, I've got O'Connels. You can have your Macaroni Grill, I'll take the Hill. I hope you enjoy PF Changs, I'll be enjoying Lemongrass/Pho Grand/etc.

I don't know if this will facilitate a larger move out west. Good schools are good schools, and I think that people will always want to live in areas like Clayton, Ladue, Town & Country and Chesterfield. I don't see this as something that's going to continue the boom in O'Fallon or Wentzville. The jobs in the outer core areas do that already. The highway is quite tolerable outside of 270 during rush hour.



I don't think that this is a great way to spend our money either. Some improved entrances and exits on 64/40 would go a LONG way to improving that highway. It doesn't need a lot of expansion, just improvements in certain areas along the way.

People are afraid of the city because they fear change and diversity. You'd be amazed how many people in Chesterfield, Arnold, O'fallon, Festus..... who have never stepped foot in the city and fear going there. They think they are gonna get mugged or raped. It's a common problem across the country. Bottom line is too many Americans need to get out more. There is more to life than your pre-fabricated franchise based bubble. There I have vented for the day.

I don't know if this will facilitate a larger move out west. Good schools are good schools, and I think that people will always want to live in areas like Clayton, Ladue, Town & Country and Chesterfield. I don't see this as something that's going to continue the boom in O'Fallon or Wentzville. The jobs in the outer core areas do that already. The highway is quite tolerable outside of 270 during rush hour.



I don't think that this is a great way to spend our money either. Some improved entrances and exits on 64/40 would go a LONG way to improving that highway. It doesn't need a lot of expansion, just improvements in certain areas along the way.

$500M isn't a very big project these days. I would be against the rebuild if they were adding lanes. Entry/Exit ramps needed to be rebuilt, the road bed was failing and bridges are literally collapsing. Despite its appearance (and label) as an Interstate, this is a 1930's parkway that is falling apart. I understand that an improved road may make living in Chesterfield more attractive to some, but this will also benefit people like myself who drive 40/64 to get to the Clayton Ave Schnuck's - Galleria etc. Not to mention it will make the road safer for all. It's not that I think this is the best way to spend $500M (Metro expansion please!), but I don't have a problem with it at all.[/code]

Magnatron wrote:People are afraid of the city because they fear change and diversity. You'd be amazed how many people in Chesterfield, Arnold, O'fallon, Festus..... who have never stepped foot in the city and fear going there. They think they are gonna get mugged or raped. It's a common problem across the country. Bottom line is too many Americans need to get out more. There is more to life than your pre-fabricated franchise based bubble. There I have vented for the day.

At one job I worked with a subcontractor from the Chicago area who lived in Naperville. (Naperville is Chicago's version of St. Charles: very white and nothing is older than 20 years old except for a small part of their downtown area.) She was born there, raised there, went to highschool at Naperville West Highschool and college at the University of Illinois.



She was 26 years old, and I kid you not, had never been to downtown Chicago! Never gone to Grant Park, the Art Institute, Wrigley Field, Soldier Field, the United Center or Michigan Ave. Never gone to Rush/Division, Hancock Tower, Sears Tower or Navy Pier.



She will only work at suburban locations and had quit two jobs because they wanted her to work in urban areas. I asked if she herself or had a close family member who had been robbed, raped or murdered in a city and was traumatized. She said no: just didn't want to run the risk.

I have been to Naperville.....zzzzzzzzz.... Chicago suburbs are so huge that unfortunately, the girl you are talking about is not a rarity. What a waste. There is so much that city has to offer. But as usual, I am getting off topic. sorry

Addition of one lane in each direction between Spoede Road and I-170

Whoops - sorry.

BTW, you can get to the Galleria/Brentwood by taking MetroLink. I am sure we could make that more pedestrian friendly, by improving sidewalks, for under 500m.

This is true, but it's a pain in the a$$ to carry concrete backerboard and four bags of mortar on Metro.

trent wrote:I don't know if this will facilitate a larger move out west. Good schools are good schools, and I think that people will always want to live in areas like Clayton, Ladue, Town & Country and Chesterfield. I don't see this as something that's going to continue the boom in O'Fallon or Wentzville. The jobs in the outer core areas do that already. The highway is quite tolerable outside of 270 during rush hour.



I don't think that this is a great way to spend our money either. Some improved entrances and exits on 64/40 would go a LONG way to improving that highway. It doesn't need a lot of expansion, just improvements in certain areas along the way.

That's my problem with this. I think life in Greater Saint Louis will go on, and the city will be just fine, etc. It just seems like an egregious waste of money, however, and a lot of pain with no gain. I think improvements to ramps could be made, the most troublesome and heavily-traveled interchanges (Lindbergh, I-170, Hampton, and Kingshighway) could be rebuilt, the extra lane between 170 and Spoede could be scrapped, and other improvements could be made over a longer period of time which wouldn't force the road to be closed.



Of course, had MoDOT done a better job of planning and using taxpayers' dollars over the last decade or so, much of these improvements could have been done over a longer period of time, and many would be already complete.



I don't see this as fueling further growth west at the expense of downtown, because as trent said, I think schools are the primary reason people move there anyway. And St. Charles County is increasingly self-contained, so I don't think it's as relevant in this discussion (unless you want to argue that we've spent a wad to build bridges there while ignoring infrastructure needs in St. Louis city and county, in which case, I think you'd have a good point).

improvements could be made over a longer period of time which wouldn't force the road to be closed.

If this were done I really think that we would just hear endless complaints about how long it took to complete, "they've had 40 torn up forever!" If 40 were open with two lanes in each direction for three years I think it would be a far worse situation that what we'll get.

Sorry to be accurate but comparing St. Charles to Naperville is very inaccurate. St. Charles is mostly built before 1987 and not after. The City grew greatly in the 1890s (think Main Street as far as Kingshighway) and the 1960s for another at least two square miles.



If we are starting in 1987 then St. Peters would not work either or Chesterfield which both built up greatly in the 1970s through 1980s. This leaves O'Fallon and Wildwood.

This is true, but it's a pain in the a$$ to carry concrete backerboard and four bags of mortar on Metro.

I worked in the storefront theatre biz for a while in Chicago. A tech director building a set I designed took two 4X8 sheets of plywood and a compound mitre saw on the Redline. It's all about being swift when going through the doors. If you get stuck, the strange looks you have been getting will turn into dirty looks.

I really doubt that people living in the city will move to the county because of a 40 expansion. If they were waiting for a reason to leave the city, an expansion of 40 isn't going to be the final straw.



People who want out of the city have left. The people that live there now that might be interested in getting out, aren't really living in an area where they are influenced by that highway anyway.



The only people who might be looking to get out are the Patti Teppers of the world. And trust me, there's a lot more people who would like to live where she lives, than in the county.

^ I agree. I know that expanded/easier transportation theoretically leads to sprawl, but my gut tells me that Trent's right. Though thinking about this has really led me to think that Metro should build a south and then north extension before going west. The question is whether Metro's mission to best serve the interests of the region in the futre (added density) or to serve those who are furthest away in West County (I'll post this in the appropriate thread)

trent wrote:I really doubt that people living in the city will move to the county because of a 40 expansion. If they were waiting for a reason to leave the city, an expansion of 40 isn't going to be the final straw.

I'm not so sure about this. If you own a home in the city, I agree the I-64 project probably isn't enough in itself to get you to move. But if you're just renting and working in Chesterfield or even in Creve Coeur, it may have an impact. Even if you enjoy the unique atmosphere of the city, we're talking about quality of life here. It could be the difference between sitting in traffic for 1 1/2 - 2 hours and being 15 minutes from work. It just depends how many people are commuting out there from the city right now. Renters from West Co. could also relocate to city neighborhoods to be closer to downtown, but I'm not sure how many renters are out there vs. the city. My feeling is that it would be less.



More generally, it makes you question how well the region's allocating its infrastructure dollars. Undoubtedly some of I-64 needs rebuilding. But adding lanes from 170 basically to 270? What's this for? It seems to me to help people commute from Chesterfield to Clayton. All of this against a backdrop of a funding shortfall at Metro and lack of money for new lanes across the Mississippi. What company is going to want to put a warehouse next to midamerica airport when a truck then has to sit for an hour and a half to cross the river?

If you own a home in the city, I agree the I-64 project probably isn't enough in itself to get you to move. But if you're just renting and working in Chesterfield or even in Creve Coeur, it may have an impact.

This may happen in a couple instances, but aren't there many more people who commute the other direction? Wouldn't there then be a net increase in population for the city?

More generally, it makes you question how well the region's allocating its infrastructure dollars. Undoubtedly some of I-64 needs rebuilding. But adding lanes from 170 basically to 270? What's this for? It seems to me to help people commute from Chesterfield to Clayton. All of this against a backdrop of a funding shortfall at Metro and lack of money for new lanes across the Mississippi. What company is going to want to put a warehouse next to midamerica airport when a truck then has to sit for an hour and a half to cross the river?

Yes it does.

i visited the new64 website the other day and was looking at the PDF files of the proposed changes to the highway. does anyone know what the green and red lines on the drawings represent? i thought it might represent new fencing or walls.

what4 wrote:i visited the new64 website the other day and was looking at the PDF files of the proposed changes to the highway. does anyone know what the green and red lines on the drawings represent? i thought it might represent new fencing or walls.

Green: current right-of-way

Red: new right-of way



You'll notice that in the vicinity of I-170, the red lines are outside the green lines, representing aquired property; in the vicinity of Kingshighway, the red lines are inside the green lines, representing property being returned to Forest Park.

Coming soon: the new Apple i64!

Steve Jobs gave his annual WWDC keynote this morning. While talking about the 64-bitness of unix, he showed this graphic.





It'd be nice of MoDOT would give this site of traffic impacts an RSS feed. I can keep up with Metro's service with their RSS feeds but I haven't found a similar service for roads.