...and even by suburban standards, its pretty ugly. Thank goodness no one but the employees will actually have to see it.
I would agree, not an urban development and yes, not sure how much development it will spur until you get a serious bump up in NGA West jobs but I would argue that keeping the campus within the city even in it current state is still a big win.
First, A major employer that is building a campus that will allow it to grow its footprint and more importantly its jobs within the city. The campus will facilitate some future moves as well, whether it be FBI from West Downtown and who knows, maybe other agencies from outside. I think the new campus will very much give NGA West the breathing space and state of the art facility to expand federal jobs in St. Louis instead of Washington DC. The new jobs is what will drive future development. It just won't happen today.
Second, St. Louis is now a land rich city with an infrastructure built for 800,000 people. It will be decades upon decades to get back to that population to have the needed resources to manage all the infrastructure. The city needs to take the greenway map posted above and figure how to consolidate areas to effectively encourage urban development around corridors, transit routes with traditional job centers such as Downtown/Riverfronts along with new job centers in Central Corridor/now NGA West at same time how to introduce or land bank parts of the city for future development. NGA West effectively created a park on the greenway map at no cost to the city with no future obligations to maintain it either.. I believe the city has to find more creative ways, maybe an inland forest, to land bank. In other words, take a look at the greenway map and figure how to add more green, reduce footprint and get more of the same people into a smaller more urban footprint until you truly have population growth.
First, A major employer that is building a campus that will allow it to grow its footprint and more importantly its jobs within the city. The campus will facilitate some future moves as well, whether it be FBI from West Downtown and who knows, maybe other agencies from outside. I think the new campus will very much give NGA West the breathing space and state of the art facility to expand federal jobs in St. Louis instead of Washington DC. The new jobs is what will drive future development. It just won't happen today.
Second, St. Louis is now a land rich city with an infrastructure built for 800,000 people. It will be decades upon decades to get back to that population to have the needed resources to manage all the infrastructure. The city needs to take the greenway map posted above and figure how to consolidate areas to effectively encourage urban development around corridors, transit routes with traditional job centers such as Downtown/Riverfronts along with new job centers in Central Corridor/now NGA West at same time how to introduce or land bank parts of the city for future development. NGA West effectively created a park on the greenway map at no cost to the city with no future obligations to maintain it either.. I believe the city has to find more creative ways, maybe an inland forest, to land bank. In other words, take a look at the greenway map and figure how to add more green, reduce footprint and get more of the same people into a smaller more urban footprint until you truly have population growth.
There weren't great options. A mega block fortress that's not "city" with 1000s of jobs in the center of the region or the pollution, deaths, and cost of infrastructure to enable 1000s of employees to drive further to the edge of the region.
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Hi all. I've lurked around here quite a bit since I moved here in 2016 and thought now was a good time to create an account and post.
I understand that a lot of you, and others outside of this forum, are disappointed in the layout of the new NGA West Campus. You cannot build this facility to be urban in style due to security. The building is purposefully set back on all sides to prevent car bombs and spies from trying to wreak havoc on the place. If you put the main building up against Jefferson or Cass, someone could do serious damage. In other words, the building would become a huge target.
Most of you are throwing a hissy fit at this development. Just stop. You need to understand the security portion of this. But because none of you are smart enough in that sector, I suggest you lay off of it. This is a huge investment in the City, and in particular, the Northside. It will eventually spur nearby development but Paul McKee has to go to see it happen. We can surely all agree on that. What you all also have to realize is that North City will probably never be truly urban or dense again. The times are different and people are different. While mostly intact neighborhoods will hopefully retain and regain their density over several decades, others just aren't there anymore. St. Louis needs to take whatever development it can get on the Northside to prevent the further decline of the Northside. As I said, the NGA is a huge investment in North City and will it will hopefully bring multiple benefits to the surrounding neighborhoods.
Complain about the parking garages. Complain about the design. Complain about anything, none of you will ever work or visit the NGA to really care. The Feds could honestly care less about what you all have to say about this project. It's designed for security, not to interact with the community. You all are lucky that there will be an accessible park as part of this project. That was almost written out of the plans.
You all need to focus on not being so negative and harsh towards your city. I've noticed a huge shift in the attitude on this forum recently. Most are becoming pessimistic, others are sh*t disturbers, others think they know what they're talking about and they don't, and others genuinely show enthusiasm. Whether or not you agree with my post is up to you. I honestly don't care. Understand that national security is the reason why this thing is being built as is presented before having your head explode.
On the North-South MetroLink issue, there was literally no chance that NGA employees would've taken the train to work. It would put the employees at risk just because some people don't like the federal government. If you get off at that station with your bags and badge, people will take notice and may do harmful acts. I'm not in favor of a stop at the NGA West Campus. Put it further North or South, just not at the actual campus.
It's not that we wanted to turn our back on the neighborhood and create a fortress. It's because we had to.
I understand that a lot of you, and others outside of this forum, are disappointed in the layout of the new NGA West Campus. You cannot build this facility to be urban in style due to security. The building is purposefully set back on all sides to prevent car bombs and spies from trying to wreak havoc on the place. If you put the main building up against Jefferson or Cass, someone could do serious damage. In other words, the building would become a huge target.
Most of you are throwing a hissy fit at this development. Just stop. You need to understand the security portion of this. But because none of you are smart enough in that sector, I suggest you lay off of it. This is a huge investment in the City, and in particular, the Northside. It will eventually spur nearby development but Paul McKee has to go to see it happen. We can surely all agree on that. What you all also have to realize is that North City will probably never be truly urban or dense again. The times are different and people are different. While mostly intact neighborhoods will hopefully retain and regain their density over several decades, others just aren't there anymore. St. Louis needs to take whatever development it can get on the Northside to prevent the further decline of the Northside. As I said, the NGA is a huge investment in North City and will it will hopefully bring multiple benefits to the surrounding neighborhoods.
Complain about the parking garages. Complain about the design. Complain about anything, none of you will ever work or visit the NGA to really care. The Feds could honestly care less about what you all have to say about this project. It's designed for security, not to interact with the community. You all are lucky that there will be an accessible park as part of this project. That was almost written out of the plans.
You all need to focus on not being so negative and harsh towards your city. I've noticed a huge shift in the attitude on this forum recently. Most are becoming pessimistic, others are sh*t disturbers, others think they know what they're talking about and they don't, and others genuinely show enthusiasm. Whether or not you agree with my post is up to you. I honestly don't care. Understand that national security is the reason why this thing is being built as is presented before having your head explode.
On the North-South MetroLink issue, there was literally no chance that NGA employees would've taken the train to work. It would put the employees at risk just because some people don't like the federal government. If you get off at that station with your bags and badge, people will take notice and may do harmful acts. I'm not in favor of a stop at the NGA West Campus. Put it further North or South, just not at the actual campus.
It's not that we wanted to turn our back on the neighborhood and create a fortress. It's because we had to.
^ Considering the massive “security” setback I don’t think you NGA folks need to worry about MetroLink getting too close to your campus no matter where they put the stations. Let’s be honest, N/S is for people that live in the North and South sides without access to a car. Not for suburban commuters to the NGA like most of their employees who don’t care about the surroundings.
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I'm just going to leave this digest of utter petulance here and pray that you go back to "lurking."NorthHamptonMatt wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020Hi all. I've lurked around here quite a bit since I moved here in 2016
Most of you are throwing a hissy fit at this development. Just stop...none of you are smart enough in that sector, I suggest you lay off of it...North City will probably never be truly urban or dense again...St. Louis needs to take whatever development it can get on the Northside
Complain...Complain...Complain...none of you will ever work or visit the NGA to really care. The Feds could honestly care less about what you all have to say about this project. It's designed for security, not to interact with the community. You all are lucky that there will be an accessible park as part of this project.
You all need to focus on not being so negative and harsh towards your city. I've noticed a huge shift in the attitude on this forum recently. Most are...pessimistic, others are sh*t disturbers, others think they know what they're talking about and they don't...I honestly don't care. Understand that national security is the reason why this thing is being built as is presented before having your head explode.
On the North-South MetroLink issue, there was literally no chance that NGA employees would've taken the train to work....I'm not in favor of a stop at the NGA West Campus.
It's not that we wanted to turn our back on the neighborhood and create a fortress. It's because we had to.
Too bad he felt the need to make his first post so snarky. If you've got something to say, we'll listen. If you're just gonna be a jerk, I think we'll pass.
(yes, we all know about the security requirements, thankyouverymuch)
(yes, we all know about the security requirements, thankyouverymuch)
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Usually I wouldn't say this but since you're being so uppity, it's "couldn't care less". And I think you underestimate people's understanding of the security requirements for this facility. People can understand and accept it without liking it. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's been discussed about a million times already in the 33 pages of this thread, so your contribution isn't as novel as you think it is. Welcome to the city and the forum. I hope we can look forward to all your posts being so confrontational and condescending.NorthHamptonMatt wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020The Feds could honestly care less about what you all have to say about this project.
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I think looking at the record most of the comment history takes this into account.NorthHamptonMatt wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020Hi all. I've lurked around here quite a bit since I moved here in 2016 and thought now was a good time to create an account and post.
I understand that a lot of you, and others outside of this forum, are disappointed in the layout of the new NGA West Campus. You cannot build this facility to be urban in style due to security. The building is purposefully set back on all sides to prevent car bombs and spies from trying to wreak havoc on the place. If you put the main building up against Jefferson or Cass, someone could do serious damage. In other words, the building would become a huge target.
That's a below the belt assertion and categorically untrue. Telling people they don't have the right to have an opinion is usually the first sign of a week arguement IMHO.NorthHamptonMatt wrote:Most of you are throwing a hissy fit at this development. Just stop. You need to understand the security portion of this. But because none of you are smart enough in that sector, I suggest you lay off of it.
I mean not "whatever it takes" but the Northside needs some love no doubt. The NGA was probably a win. Though I wish the location could have been a little more strategically helpful to the overall benefit of the Northside. As it sits I think its ok but not ideal.NorthHamptonMatt wrote:St. Louis needs to take whatever development it can get on the Northside to prevent the further decline of the Northside. As I said, the NGA is a huge investment in North City and will it will hopefully bring multiple benefits to the surrounding neighborhoods.
That's basically what i said. It's ugly, but at least we won't have to see it.NorthHamptonMatt wrote:Complain about the parking garages. Complain about the design. Complain about anything, none of you will ever work or visit the NGA to really care. The Feds could honestly care less about what you all have to say about this project. It's designed for security, not to interact with the community. You all are lucky that there will be an accessible park as part of this project. That was almost written out of the plans.
Yet obviously you do...NorthHamptonMatt wrote:You all need to focus on not being so negative and harsh towards your city. I've noticed a huge shift in the attitude on this forum recently. Most are becoming pessimistic, others are sh*t disturbers, others think they know what they're talking about and they don't, and others genuinely show enthusiasm. Whether or not you agree with my post is up to you. I honestly don't care.
OK now that's just dumb. Ever hear of a place called the pentagon. It literally has a metro stop right next to it. People won't ride it because it won't be as convenient as driving, and that is OK. But i don't think they should be entertaining a Metrolink expansion to somewhere that the ridership isn't there to justify it.NorthHamptonMatt wrote:On the North-South MetroLink issue, there was literally no chance that NGA employees would've taken the train to work. It would put the employees at risk just because some people don't like the federal government. If you get off at that station with your bags and badge, people will take notice and may do harmful acts. I'm not in favor of a stop at the NGA West Campus. Put it further North or South, just not at the actual campus.
Wait did you design it. Sorry dude. But it is ugly...NorthHamptonMatt wrote:It's not that we wanted to turn our back on the neighborhood and create a fortress. It's because we had to.
Also Welcome to the forum
When people complain about the suburban design, I believe most of us are talking about the design of the building itself, not the campus. As many others have noted, most of us understand the need for the fence, setback, parking-garages-as-barriers, and the large landscaped campus by now, as it has been discussed to death.
The security requirements at NGA West are the same as the NGA HQ in Virginia. And yet the design of the headquarters office buildings is light years ahead of NGA West. It is not a bland square, it is two separate, modern curved buildings with a large atrium between them. It does not look like a 1980's suburban office building / shopping mall development, even though it actually is in a suburban location. Instead the HQ design is worthy of a Silicon Valley tech campus (for whatever that is worth).
A reminder:
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The security requirements at NGA West are the same as the NGA HQ in Virginia. And yet the design of the headquarters office buildings is light years ahead of NGA West. It is not a bland square, it is two separate, modern curved buildings with a large atrium between them. It does not look like a 1980's suburban office building / shopping mall development, even though it actually is in a suburban location. Instead the HQ design is worthy of a Silicon Valley tech campus (for whatever that is worth).
A reminder:
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Yes, this isn't and never was going to be an "urban" development. This is an extremely secure, high level national intelligence installation. What exactly was anyone expecting if not this site plan? This is purely about keeping a large, highly skilled, highly compensated workforce within the city boundaries.Rooster wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020Sadly I agree.JacksonPolyp wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020I'm sorry, but this is not an urban development. I appreciate that it's a large investment, but it's not the right kind of investment for our city. I also seriously doubt that it will accelerate the rebound of nearby neighborhoods.
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Actually, I'd be a little surprised if "most" of NGA's employees don't care about the surroundings. All of the NGA staff I know and work with care deeply. All of them. Not some. All. To be fair that's a self-selected group of people, some of whom actually grew up here. But NGA isn't the big, cold, soulless government agency you make it out to be. The predecessors to the current agency have been in the region a very long time now, so the employees are your friends and neighbors. Ordinary people. Some live in the county, some in the city. Some are suburban. Some urban. Some young. Some nearing retirement age. Some men. Some women. Some Caucasian. Many very much not. It's a big damn group of people. Good people. Who care. You might be surprised who would ride Metrolink in. But if you think folks there don't care about the region, the city, or their surroundings I think you'd be very surprised indeed. They make maps for fun and profit. They play with statistics. They live here. They know how urbanism works.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020^ Considering the massive “security” setback I don’t think you NGA folks need to worry about MetroLink getting too close to your campus no matter where they put the stations. Let’s be honest, N/S is for people that live in the North and South sides without access to a car. Not for suburban commuters to the NGA like most of their employees who don’t care about the surroundings.
I mostly 2nd this. The younger newer hires especially. Very diverse group, a majority of which are transplants not from the area. Most of those I know live in the city and are at minimum in the 270 loop. As you see much of the order crowd retire and replaced with a younger crowd, I think you will see a larger percentage living in the city or inner suburbs. I would say most employees do care about the surroundings. I know they have been asked what type of places they would like to see go up around the new complex (grocery stores/resturants/etc) and many have opinions. So to say they just drive in from the suburbs and back out without caring about the surroundings is incorrect.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2020Actually, I'd be a little surprised if "most" of NGA's employees don't care about the surroundings. All of the NGA staff I know and work with care deeply. All of them. Not some. All. To be fair that's a self-selected group of people, some of whom actually grew up here. But NGA isn't the big, cold, soulless government agency you make it out to be. The predecessors to the current agency have been in the region a very long time now, so the employees are your friends and neighbors. Ordinary people. Some live in the county, some in the city. Some are suburban. Some urban. Some young. Some nearing retirement age. Some men. Some women. Some Caucasian. Many very much not. It's a big damn group of people. Good people. Who care. You might be surprised who would ride Metrolink in. But if you think folks there don't care about the region, the city, or their surroundings I think you'd be very surprised indeed. They make maps for fun and profit. They play with statistics. They live here. They know how urbanism works.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020^ Considering the massive “security” setback I don’t think you NGA folks need to worry about MetroLink getting too close to your campus no matter where they put the stations. Let’s be honest, N/S is for people that live in the North and South sides without access to a car. Not for suburban commuters to the NGA like most of their employees who don’t care about the surroundings.
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Honestly y'all, I'm just glad that the NGA West, and especially its employee base, are going to stay in STL. If given the choice of the current proposal, versus the competing proposal for NGA West going to Mascoutah & the open land around Mid America Airport, every single one of us would take the current proposal. In a perfect world, it would have a more urban design, but that's just not possible for an Intelligence Community HQ, for the reasons recently stated and the obvious ones we all already should know and recognize.
The current design, while maybe not the most aesthetically pleasing, is a damn sight better than what could be, especially noting how the New NGA West will have facilities for visitors and is already working proactively with the region's cluster of geospatial companies and university programs. They don't have to do any of this; they are choosing to do so. Placing the two big garages on either side of the building's length? Maybe it's a necessary evil. Very much, I'd love to see something like NGA East - like Urbanitas posted above - but I'm not sure if that's doable in a dense urban environment because of security requirements. If the Intelligence Community reasonably decides that the current proposal is the best one for security, then so be it. I'm still hopeful the STL Field Office for the FBI can relocate to the north side of the NGA West campus.
NGA really could've taken this entire thing and gone full "Spies Like Us" with it, which really would've been the most secure facility: totally underground, in an isolated non-urban environment, with a parking lot on top. Covert or not, it would be the most secure.
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Won't you gentlemen have a Pepsi?
The current design, while maybe not the most aesthetically pleasing, is a damn sight better than what could be, especially noting how the New NGA West will have facilities for visitors and is already working proactively with the region's cluster of geospatial companies and university programs. They don't have to do any of this; they are choosing to do so. Placing the two big garages on either side of the building's length? Maybe it's a necessary evil. Very much, I'd love to see something like NGA East - like Urbanitas posted above - but I'm not sure if that's doable in a dense urban environment because of security requirements. If the Intelligence Community reasonably decides that the current proposal is the best one for security, then so be it. I'm still hopeful the STL Field Office for the FBI can relocate to the north side of the NGA West campus.
NGA really could've taken this entire thing and gone full "Spies Like Us" with it, which really would've been the most secure facility: totally underground, in an isolated non-urban environment, with a parking lot on top. Covert or not, it would be the most secure.
Won't you gentlemen have a Pepsi?
Would've been perfect on the north riverfront similar to how it is now.
A couple of weeks ago the P-D had an interview with Robert Cardillo. Not much in the way of new information, but still interesting: Former NGA Director Robert Cardillo on north St. Louis campus: 'No coasting'
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^Interesting. I like the way Cardillo tells the story. No punches pulled, but I think an accurate and fair assessment. And a good analysis of what is and what can be. Thank you for posting that.
Fox2 reported back on the 19th that there was going to be a public meeting where new renderings would be revealed, including a street level look. Haven’t seen anything come out from that yet though...anyone else?
Yeah, they released the street view renderings, but you might want to sit down first, as this is exciting stuff:sc4mayor wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2020Fox2 reported back on the 19th that there was going to be a public meeting where new renderings would be revealed, including a street level look. Haven’t seen anything come out from that yet though...anyone else?
Northwest View
Southeast View
Southwest View
From Fox 2 Now: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency unveils new renderings
Good thing they have a fence that's a whole 6 feet tall for all the security setback needed.
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It is one of the most secure intelligence campuses in the world... did anyone expect it to NOT have a 6 foot fence? This place was never intended to be some open to the public green space.
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no it's okay everybody it's urban look there's a woman pushing a stroller!
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The offices themselves compare reasonably well with other intelligence agency HQs, i.e. CIA, NSA, DIA, NRO. The big differences between these is that the others are located in isolated environments, i.e. most are suburban with woodlands around them. Also, instead of parking garages, most other agency HQs are surrounded by giant parking lots to act as their security setbacks. Seriously, they mostly look like suburban football stadiums surrounded by giant tailgating lots. We should actually be glad to have the green space and lakes.
Same time, yeah, it's not gonna fully mesh with the urban grid. What this will do, though, is attract other entities nearby. If the North Side is going to have an urban economic rejuvenation, it will come from projects around the new NGA West, not from the site itself. What NGA West will do is reestablish the area, lure new entities to move there, and stabilize this part of the City.
Same time, yeah, it's not gonna fully mesh with the urban grid. What this will do, though, is attract other entities nearby. If the North Side is going to have an urban economic rejuvenation, it will come from projects around the new NGA West, not from the site itself. What NGA West will do is reestablish the area, lure new entities to move there, and stabilize this part of the City.
I think the surprise was that it was only 6' tall, given the large setback.chaifetz10 wrote: ↑Mar 06, 2020It is one of the most secure intelligence campuses in the world... did anyone expect it to NOT have a 6 foot fence? This place was never intended to be some open to the public green space.
In any case, it is hard to judge height from those renderings, but that fence is probably more like 8' tall.