Yeah, as it stands Downtown STL is spiraling down to vacant office building nation. I'd take a "Disneyland" downtown any day over that.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Mar 10, 2021Museum would be far more fitting, just worry Downtown STL continuing the spiral into tourist nation, though that use is far more beneficial than a vacant building at any rate.
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Generally speaking, I'm just interested in a constructive re-use of this building, and if it's a solid hotel, then so be it. Just get it done. The Treasurer's Office really needs to step up and get some progress here; amazing it hasn't progressed leading up to this election cycle.
Then again... A museum at this site could really increase the visitor experience in Downtown. We already have a National Park, with museums, at the Arch, especially noting the Old Courthouse. We also have the Soldiers Memorial at 13th & Chestnut. Now, maybe visitors to the Arch wouldn't consider much walking maybe a mile between the Old Courthouse and this old court house (yeah, ironic) if it was a hotel... But, if you could make this a new museum, maybe it could get the Arch visitors to walk down Market. Maybe we could grow our small Downtown museum district?
Big issue would be funding. We'd need endowment-level investment to make this fly, and the tacit support of the other museums as mentioned previously. Get the backers, and maybe it could be a "natural" museum, whether mining or paleontology or - dare I say - History of the Plains Indian Nations less than a mile from that of the Museum of Westward Expansion, i.e. the American Conquest of the West. That'd be an awesome juxtaposition.
Concurrently, let's all remember the other Downtown museums: the Blues Museum, the Field House Museum (and Toy Museum), the Economy Museum at the Federal Reserve, the Campbell House Museum, and (of course) the City Museum.
Then again... A museum at this site could really increase the visitor experience in Downtown. We already have a National Park, with museums, at the Arch, especially noting the Old Courthouse. We also have the Soldiers Memorial at 13th & Chestnut. Now, maybe visitors to the Arch wouldn't consider much walking maybe a mile between the Old Courthouse and this old court house (yeah, ironic) if it was a hotel... But, if you could make this a new museum, maybe it could get the Arch visitors to walk down Market. Maybe we could grow our small Downtown museum district?
Big issue would be funding. We'd need endowment-level investment to make this fly, and the tacit support of the other museums as mentioned previously. Get the backers, and maybe it could be a "natural" museum, whether mining or paleontology or - dare I say - History of the Plains Indian Nations less than a mile from that of the Museum of Westward Expansion, i.e. the American Conquest of the West. That'd be an awesome juxtaposition.
Concurrently, let's all remember the other Downtown museums: the Blues Museum, the Field House Museum (and Toy Museum), the Economy Museum at the Federal Reserve, the Campbell House Museum, and (of course) the City Museum.
Why not the St. Louis History Museum? Currently our history resides in the Missouri History Museum and Arch Museum. St. Louis isn't the PRIMARY focus of either. We need a stand alone museum focused solely on Saint Louis.
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^Honestly, I'll be happy with anything that can keep the lights on and people in the building. It's too neat a building in too lovely a spot to risk losing.
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What about the St. Louis Museum of Industry and Technology
Can have all kinds of exhibits about st louis industrial past. from the 1840s to current day
Can have all kinds of exhibits about st louis industrial past. from the 1840s to current day
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You just gave me a great idea! Why don't we make the vacant AT&T building into a St. Louis Tower of Terror. Each floor would be an exhibit on reasons for the decline of Rust Belt cities, featuring racism, interstates, competing tax incentives, and complacency to name a few. You'd be forced to walk all the way to the top floor where you would finally board the elevator fashioned as the interior of a street car and plummet to the bottom.kipfilet wrote:Yeah, as it stands Downtown STL is spiraling down to vacant office building nation. I'd take a "Disneyland" downtown any day over that.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Mar 10, 2021Museum would be far more fitting, just worry Downtown STL continuing the spiral into tourist nation, though that use is far more beneficial than a vacant building at any rate.
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This is a cool idea. What would be the focus industries? Beer, Shoes, Rail Roads, Aerospace, Ag Tech, Bricks?Thatguy644 wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021What about the St. Louis Museum of Industry and Technology
Can have all kinds of exhibits about st louis industrial past. from the 1840s to current day
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All great ideas, I'll throw mine into the void as well: The Museum of Urban Renewal. Could be a really interesting museum talking about the various nuances of urban renewal around the country and right here in STL. Plenty of themes to explore: Racism, highway building, Jane Jacobs movement, eminent domain, segregation, public housing, lost neighborhoods, automobile culture.
Kinda seems like it should just be a museum of St. Louis history that touches on all these things. You could have a whole space dedicated to how we attempted (and failed) to Robert Moses St. Louis.
Another section could be about the city’s industrial development and history and how it’s affected the Country (Brick by Chance and Fortune alone has plenty of material for brick and clay mines).
Etc, etc, etc.
The Missouri History Museum in Forest Park could focus more on traveling exhibits and major national shows while the Muni Courts could become a permanent home to their STL collections.
Another section could be about the city’s industrial development and history and how it’s affected the Country (Brick by Chance and Fortune alone has plenty of material for brick and clay mines).
Etc, etc, etc.
The Missouri History Museum in Forest Park could focus more on traveling exhibits and major national shows while the Muni Courts could become a permanent home to their STL collections.
All good just as long as the city will want to do something with the surface lot on backside and along Clark!! Considering its location between new MLS stadium/Union Station/Enterprise Center on west side, literally kitty corner to metrolink station & BPV/Busch stadium this should be one of the next surface lots to be developed if city would move on it.
I'd like to see a Pulitzer museum/boutique hotel/conference center at the site with a focus on journalism, art, the Pulitzer family and perhaps even the Pulitzer Prize. There aren't many names as big as Pulitzer in this world, and fortunately for STL, Pulitzer is 'one of us', so why not do what any other city would have done already. I'd certainly visit/stay at the Pulitzer!
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Seems like the only potential change in store would be surface parking for structured parkingdredger wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021All good just as long as the city will want to do something with the surface lot on backside and along Clark!! Considering its location between new MLS stadium/Union Station/Enterprise Center on west side, literally kitty corner to metrolink station & BPV/Busch stadium this should be one of the next surface lots to be developed if city would move on it.
I believe their was a few renderings floated, specifically one with garage with ground level space/courtyard and a residential tower. I think it would make sense for city to come down on the value if a strong developer could come in with similar plan/commitmentBellaVilla wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021Seems like the only potential change in store would be surface parking for structured parkingdredger wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021All good just as long as the city will want to do something with the surface lot on backside and along Clark!! Considering its location between new MLS stadium/Union Station/Enterprise Center on west side, literally kitty corner to metrolink station & BPV/Busch stadium this should be one of the next surface lots to be developed if city would move on it.
Of course my wishful thought - dream development plan
- St. Louis secures NBA franchise
- Small parking garage on west side of Enterprise Center is torn down for expanded back office/lockers/etc.
- As part of the deal to get NBA, city gives up Old Muni Building and surface lot for/as expanded stadium mini village - boutique hotel in Old Muni Courts building, garage w below ground tied into stadium for NHL/NBA franchise group & above ground parking/podium for new residential tower.
- For long term, since it is all wishful thinking, relocate post office facility for future phase II of mini village.
Another way to look at it, I got my plan to be a NHL/NBA owner all lined up above if I win the next billion dollar lotto.
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^Sign me up for a jersey once you're ready, please and thank you.
Let's all make sure we don't get too excited with our museum dreams. The biggest impediments to this becoming something new are
1) the Treasurer's Office being willing to let a developer move forward with something, and
2) money, recognizing explicitly that the institutional costs of a museum could be prohibitively expensive.
I like a lot of these ideas, but let's temper our excitement if we'd be let down too much if this becomes a hotel and not a cool museum.
Remember Ed Golterman.
Let's all make sure we don't get too excited with our museum dreams. The biggest impediments to this becoming something new are
1) the Treasurer's Office being willing to let a developer move forward with something, and
2) money, recognizing explicitly that the institutional costs of a museum could be prohibitively expensive.
I like a lot of these ideas, but let's temper our excitement if we'd be let down too much if this becomes a hotel and not a cool museum.
Remember Ed Golterman.
^ Is anyone here expecting it to become a museum? I think we’re just spitballing, honestly. I’m not under the impression it’s gonna be anything but an empty building for the foreseeable future.
Also a little peeved about the way KMOV is framing this as the Treasurer’s fault (though not at all surprised). If it’s true that the land is worth millions more than what the developer attempted to originally buy it for, I’d rather the city get the full value...especially if the difference is as much as $10 million dollars as reported. Leaving that kind of money on the table is just idiotic.
I can see the KMOV headline now “Treasurer sells off city owned land to developer for millions less than it’s worth”. If the difference in assessed value her office is describing is a lie, then they’ll need to answer for that...but until someone can prove otherwise there’s no reason for the city to leave millions on the table like that.
Also a little peeved about the way KMOV is framing this as the Treasurer’s fault (though not at all surprised). If it’s true that the land is worth millions more than what the developer attempted to originally buy it for, I’d rather the city get the full value...especially if the difference is as much as $10 million dollars as reported. Leaving that kind of money on the table is just idiotic.
I can see the KMOV headline now “Treasurer sells off city owned land to developer for millions less than it’s worth”. If the difference in assessed value her office is describing is a lie, then they’ll need to answer for that...but until someone can prove otherwise there’s no reason for the city to leave millions on the table like that.
Very unlikely for it to become a museum. Someone said they would like it above and it went from there.
If it has to become a hotel not to remain empty/get demolished, then it should become a hotel.
If someone is willing to pay millions, then the land is worth millions. If no one is willing to pay those millions, then that land is not worth those millions.
If it has to become a hotel not to remain empty/get demolished, then it should become a hotel.
If someone is willing to pay millions, then the land is worth millions. If no one is willing to pay those millions, then that land is not worth those millions.
Not to derail this lead, but is the dispute that the Treasurer's Office thinks they could get a higher value for the land from someone else, or that the Treasurer's Office thinks the value of a one-time sale is not enough to make up for the loss of revenue directly to the Treasurer's Office for managing the parking services on the lot?sc4mayor wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021If it’s true that the land is worth millions more than what the developer attempted to originally buy it for, I’d rather the city get the full value...especially if the difference is as much as $10 million dollars as reported. Leaving that kind of money on the table is just idiotic.
I can see the KMOV headline now “Treasurer sells off city owned land to developer for millions less than it’s worth”. If the difference in assessed value her office is describing is a lie, then they’ll need to answer for that...but until someone can prove otherwise there’s no reason for the city to leave millions on the table like that.
There is an article a page up that goes a little into this, but is about a year old and so may be out of date: Municipal Court hotel developer, city treasurer at odds over adjacent lot
As kipfilet says above, I think the real estate value of the lot is pretty well-established from a market perspective--the lot is only worth whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. $2 million is the only offer that has been on the table for years, so if an assessment says the lot is worth $10 million but no one is offering $10 million over a period of many years, I think it is hard to argue that the lot is actually worth $10 million. I guess the fairest way to assess the value of the land would be to issue an RFP or put it on the market, but I think the $10-$12 million value seems pretty optimistic since the only offer on the table is $2 million.The Board of Aldermen in 2017 approved selling the 209-space upper City Hall lot for $2 million, which would go into general city coffers.
In addition, the ordinance says, a yet-to-be determined amount must be paid to cover the loss of day-to-day revenue for Jones’ office, which runs city parking operations.
Vertical Realty Advisors LLC, one of the companies developing the hotel, proposed paying the treasurer’s office $533,000. That’s far less than the $4.7 million Jones and her staff say is needed to reimburse the office for the loss of revenue from the lot pledged to help cover the city’s overall parking debt.
The argument from the article linked above seems to be that the Treasurer's Office thinks that the lot is more valuable as a paid parking lot with revenue controlled by the Treasurer's Office than it would be if it was sold off, and that the loss of parking revenue for the office from this site could cause issues with other debt the office has. It sounds like the Treasurer's Office wants an ongoing piece of the pie for any future parking revenues in a garage there. This could be an issue of fragmentation within city government, where the ancillary development and taxes generated by the site may outweigh its use as a surface parking lot, but because the site is controlled by a fiefdom within the city government that essentially runs its own budget, something that could benefit the city as a whole but does not benefit the fiefdom that controls it is enough to sink a project.
Unfortunate if true, but I think a reasonable interpretation of the situation.
Honestly 1711 Locust would be a fitting spot for that. Not as high profile visibility but it's past status as a power plant for the 1904 World's Fair would be quite the perfect fit. I of course wouldn't mind other venues but I'd say that one is in a higher state of disrepair. Muni Courts would be a fantastic venue as well.Thatguy644 wrote: ↑Mar 11, 2021What about the St. Louis Museum of Industry and Technology
Can have all kinds of exhibits about st louis industrial past. from the 1840s to current day
StlToday - St. Louis seeks to renovate long-vacant courthouse. Developer says he still owns it
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... 17ab2.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... 17ab2.html
Developers/Architects/Stakeholders who attended walk throughs in mid-November
Lawrence Group
New + found
Alterra Worldwide
Mackey Mitchell Architects
Wood Brothers
EDM Inc
Vertical Realty Advisors
Hellmuth-Bicknese Architects
St. Louis Blues
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... ipants.pdf
Lawrence Group
New + found
Alterra Worldwide
Mackey Mitchell Architects
Wood Brothers
EDM Inc
Vertical Realty Advisors
Hellmuth-Bicknese Architects
St. Louis Blues
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... ipants.pdf
^ Glad to see Blues on the list.
I always thought the path for expanding/adding NBA team or just being a lot more competitive for NCAA tournaments, etc is somehow incorporate the Old Muni Courthouse development backlot into the mix. Adding parking structure including underground parking/or underground facilities (and a nice tower on top) with direct access to Enterprise Arena from the east (cut and trench under 14th street) gives the opportunity to add more non court facilities from training rooms, to locker rooms, to more back space office by either incorporating them into the Old Muni backlot development itself and or tear down the existing parking structure tucked in between the Arena and Post Office facility..
I always thought the path for expanding/adding NBA team or just being a lot more competitive for NCAA tournaments, etc is somehow incorporate the Old Muni Courthouse development backlot into the mix. Adding parking structure including underground parking/or underground facilities (and a nice tower on top) with direct access to Enterprise Arena from the east (cut and trench under 14th street) gives the opportunity to add more non court facilities from training rooms, to locker rooms, to more back space office by either incorporating them into the Old Muni backlot development itself and or tear down the existing parking structure tucked in between the Arena and Post Office facility..
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Just to clarify, Roger Hacker attended as a private citizen. Which is why he used his personal email
That said- the blues obviously want to see the building redeveloped and would be interested in donating items for a hall of fame or something like it if it was part of the facility
That said- the blues obviously want to see the building redeveloped and would be interested in donating items for a hall of fame or something like it if it was part of the facility
Dblnsouthcity, thanks
To me the value or just as much as the building itself is the parking lot on backside along Clark. Would I be correct that it is part of the Old Muni Courthouse? city owned? hopeuflly the city including this part of the property for development proposal? Just can't recall much from the initial attempt which must be several years ago.
Will also add, a wood frame tower to go on top of the parking structure like you see with AHM propose for West Downtown would be killer at the location to go along with the sports team theme branded Clark Ave. Might be cliche to have all these sports development villages but seems like the catalyst to add some great new infill, residents to downtown.
To me the value or just as much as the building itself is the parking lot on backside along Clark. Would I be correct that it is part of the Old Muni Courthouse? city owned? hopeuflly the city including this part of the property for development proposal? Just can't recall much from the initial attempt which must be several years ago.
Will also add, a wood frame tower to go on top of the parking structure like you see with AHM propose for West Downtown would be killer at the location to go along with the sports team theme branded Clark Ave. Might be cliche to have all these sports development villages but seems like the catalyst to add some great new infill, residents to downtown.
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Great to see this! Felt like we had been sitting on that one without much news. Municipal Courts Building would be a great entertainment and civic space for multiple uses.
Agree, adding a tower on the backlot would fill in a key spot on Clark. Best transit access in the city right there too. Clark is still very pieced together with the horrible ramps at 10th, lot next to tin roof, the city hall back lot and oh my oh my that horrible horrible ramp at 14th (really needs to be taken down).
Love the DB idea of giving it a facelift as a sports street. I think young people would find the area between Enterprise and Busch as a good place to live with a facelift and filling in the weird gaps with more residential.
Agree, adding a tower on the backlot would fill in a key spot on Clark. Best transit access in the city right there too. Clark is still very pieced together with the horrible ramps at 10th, lot next to tin roof, the city hall back lot and oh my oh my that horrible horrible ramp at 14th (really needs to be taken down).
Love the DB idea of giving it a facelift as a sports street. I think young people would find the area between Enterprise and Busch as a good place to live with a facelift and filling in the weird gaps with more residential.
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Any deal to work the back top lot and probably the bottom lot would have to be part of the dealdredger wrote: ↑Dec 13, 2024Dblnsouthcity, thanks
To me the value or just as much as the building itself is the parking lot on backside along Clark. Would I be correct that it is part of the Old Muni Courthouse? city owned? hopeuflly the city including this part of the property for development proposal? Just can't recall much from the initial attempt which must be several years ago.
Will also add, a wood frame tower to go on top of the parking structure like you see with AHM propose for West Downtown would be killer at the location to go along with the sports team theme branded Clark Ave. Might be cliche to have all these sports development villages but seems like the catalyst to add some great new infill, residents to downtown.