2,953
Life MemberLife Member
2,953

PostOct 10, 2006#251

Mill204 wrote:
FromTheLou wrote:An idea that I have not heard for the riverfront is to build a lock and dam south of downtown St. Louis. This would have several advantages:



1) water level could be controlled enabling development very close to the river edge



2) current speed could be reduced making the area more boater friendly



3) slower current creates an environment where desirable marinas can be built downtown. Imagine hundreds of boats in marinas in front of the arch. It would look great! The Baltimore harbor is an example of how it can look.



Obviously cost is a major downside, but the most recent riverfront proposal is not exacly cheap either plus the federal government might chip in on a new lock and dam if the business case can be made.
Sounds great! Now, what part of St. Louis do we get to flood with this dam?


Obviously it's East St. Louis.

752
Super MemberSuper Member
752

PostOct 10, 2006#252

^^ I would find a way to flood chesterfield again (i know thats the missouri -- but its the thought that counts)

147
Junior MemberJunior Member
147

PostFeb 24, 2007#253

so, is this happening still?

995
Super MemberSuper Member
995

PostFeb 24, 2007#254


264
Full MemberFull Member
264

PostFeb 24, 2007#255

There's a 2007 update .. basically, still no to floating islands, yes to ramps (rendering on pages 39-45), and they admit that they're totally out of any good ideas, but they're still willing to accept money.



there are 3 ramps they propose. one from river up to arch, one from arch over to the eads, and one from arch west toward soulard. the latter 2 seem kinda fanciful, but would be good.



all of their 'concepts' for the waters edge seem like variations of one. i guess i can live without the cobbles, but these designs are half baked.. a swimming pool .. water taxis .. water turbines and biomass .. they should have spent more money for proposals, and less on drugs for whoever made that ppt. what a joke. i still laugh at those renderings for the islands .. page 79 is comic gold!



if they really want people down there, why dont they first try free parking.. and if that doesn't work, thennnnn try spending their bajillion dollars.




February 2007, St. Louis – The Great Rivers Greenway District and its partners are continuing work on an exciting new Master Plan design for the St. Louis Riverfront between the Eads and Popular Street bridges.



The design will emphasize a dynamic, innovative public space that provides something for everyone, from area residents to tourists and conventioneers. In accordance with preferences for amenities expressed by the public at a series of open forums, the plan will incorporate play areas for children, gathering spots for river viewing and performance venues, as well as walkways, dining and refreshment spaces, recreation facilities and opportunities for rotating activities.



In terms of engineering, the emerging Master Plan design will be more conventional than the floating islands concept that initially was being considered. While engineering solutions could have addressed various hurdles, including navigational issues and safety concerns caused by debris and dangerous cross-currents, the aesthetics were not acceptable.



Several design elements proposed for the floating island concept will be incorporated into the emerging plan for land-based improvements. These elements include enhanced connectivity between the Arch Grounds and the Riverfront, featuring a series of pedestrian ramps from the top of the Arch Grounds to Lenore K. Sullivan Blvd. and Washington Ave. to improve accessibility for families with strollers and persons with limited mobility.

154
Junior MemberJunior Member
154

PostFeb 24, 2007#256

Im all for an olympic size swimming pool in the river, right in front of the arch...

The contrast between the chlorinated, baby blue water of the pool, against the muddy, murky, stick laden water of the mississippi will be spectacular!!!



The building of islands isnt a bad idea though.

425
Full MemberFull Member
425

PostFeb 24, 2007#257

Agent009 wrote:The building of islands isnt a bad idea though.
Yeah, it really is.



Let them experiment with tourist traps on Laclede's or Chouteau's Landing, and at least take a shot at enlivening the central riverfront with things to do rather than ripping up the historic cobbles to put in a fancy lawn.

419
Full MemberFull Member
419

PostFeb 24, 2007#258

I thought we were closer than 2015. I hope I'm around to see the day.

508
Senior MemberSenior Member
508

PostFeb 25, 2007#259

I like the direction they're heading with this...losing the gimmicky islands (I hope they do the same with the swimming pool/skating rink) and keeping the ramps connecting the Arch grounds to the riverfront and the landing. I'm looking forward to the forum this spring.

3,311
Life MemberLife Member
3,311

PostFeb 25, 2007#260

i kind of like the "gimmicky" islands. Something you wouldn't find in the US, maybe in Asia or Europe, where architectural trends are becoming FAR more advanced than our own. how sad. Just look at HOK's website. The renderings for Asia and Europe are much cooler than those we see today here. Look at the retro mansion house addition. what a joke..

10K
AdministratorAdministrator
10K

PostFeb 26, 2007#261

shinpickle wrote:page 79 is comic gold!


I was at the public meeting for this project (back in 05?) and someone asked, "Do you really think that people will want to walk down those long, narrow ramps?" It was exactly what I was thinking - it may look interesting in a rendering, but I don't think it would be too practical.

154
Junior MemberJunior Member
154

PostFeb 26, 2007#262

The islands idea remind me of the jetties that stick out into the river at frontier park in st charles. They are there most of the time, cept for high water stages. These little walkways out into the river are one of the coolest part of the park, and people are always out playing on them. Tossing rocks in the water, fishing, watching sticks go by, whatever. If the river is nice enough to allow em for the 4th, they are one of the best places ive ever watched a fireworks display from.

69
New MemberNew Member
69

PostFeb 26, 2007#263

JCity wrote:how sad. Just look at HOK's website. The renderings for Asia and Europe are much cooler than those we see today here.


Pretty much...



The US architecture is brought to us by people who brainstormed for the breakthrough ideas on Page 23/109:



Today's Riverfront:

Underutilized, Boring, Disconnected, Barren, Unsafe, Historical



Future Riverfront:

Exciting, Green, Fun, Attractive, Vibrant, Accessible, Bustling



Wow, I hope they didn't spend more than 10 seconds to come to those far from insightful conclusions; they sound like high school comments. The next page is good for a laugh too.

1,770
Never Logs OffNever Logs Off
1,770

PostFeb 26, 2007#264

Why don't we just paint the arch gold and have McDonalds finance the whole project? We could have McDonalds themed playgrounds, kooky karacters like the Hamburglar walking around, and historical exhibits which link St. Louis' past to McDonalds present. The first exhibit could be on the 1849 Cholera epidemic.

1,510
Totally AddictedTotally Addicted
1,510

PostFeb 26, 2007#265

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would love a German-style biergarten. I think it would make a killing with business people Happy Hours and baseball games. If not on the archground, then in the park in fron of the Old Courthouse and just south of the Adam's Mark.

476
Full MemberFull Member
476

PostFeb 26, 2007#266

I really wish we could just have a simple, attractive, classy riverfront like in paris or amsterdam with lots of good looking stone work AND trees etc. People go to those kinds of riverfronts to relax. Those riverfronts have outdoor cafes where people watch boats go by, watch the sunset, and listen to music etc. The problem that STL has is that we have one of the biggest river in the world flowing by and one of the ugliest river shorelines ever across the river. Also, the Mississipi floods which would make building permanent buildings down there hard. I really think that if we want to have a good riverfront the cobblestones need to come out, but that doesnt mean that they cant be used a new design. I wish I could figure out how to put up pictures on here and I could show what Im thinking about but I think you all get the idea.



The St Louis river front should not be a carnival. And I dont really think that "Family Oriented" attractions are the right way to go. Having a BMX park and a swimming pool will probably not be very successful. But alcohol and live music probably will. Just a thought.

995
Super MemberSuper Member
995

PostFeb 27, 2007#267

Also, the Mississipi floods


Yes.

10K
AdministratorAdministrator
10K

PostFeb 27, 2007#268

^

I saw on the news last night that part of the new Lewis and Clark statue is underwater right now - the river is very high!

2,953
Life MemberLife Member
2,953

PostFeb 28, 2007#269

I thought they put it on a moveable platform for the simple reason that this wouldn't happen.

1,770
Never Logs OffNever Logs Off
1,770

PostFeb 28, 2007#270

The real problems. The riverfront is not accessible. Even when (notice I don't say "if") Downtown becomes a true destination and all the thousands of empty lofts are filled, highway 70 is still in the way. I think the first meaningful step has to be covering the highway and reconnecting the space. Everything else will follow. The other point I want to make is that the actual coblestone riverfront area floods, but the bluff line doesn't. That is why Stl is where it is, and why, even in 93, the city was fine. The fact that we ceded the most viable part of the bluffline to the federal government was a mistake that we may pay for the rest of the life of the city. Unfortunately, I think that the riverfront ideas, aside from some kind of marina, need to focus on bluffline projects for viability's sake, and that is where we run headlong into the NPS. Because of the park, we can only work substantially to the north or south of the arch, and that means even further detachment from downtown. Does anyone know of instances where the NPS has leased property for development?

154
Junior MemberJunior Member
154

PostFeb 28, 2007#271

When i was in louisville a few months back i saw signs for this everywhere...

8664.org

Hiway 64 is on the river front in louisville, and right now they plan on expanding it. This group is fighting to remove the stretch of hiway completely.



I was quite impressed with downtown l-ville, the amount of old buildings was amazing. Many of which were vacant just a few years ago. The town is undergoing a revival, and seems to be handling it rather well.







Check out this rehab...



The building with the scaffold is the front... Keeping the original face/street intact.



i digress...

69
New MemberNew Member
69

PostFeb 28, 2007#272

^TGE-ATW-very good point.

264
Full MemberFull Member
264

PostFeb 28, 2007#273

leasing national park land is common, even for commercial development, hell, even McDonaldses



i would think the city would get a good deal if we were leasing it for parkland.



i would like to see the south & north west corners have some meaningful commercial development.. even if it was a couple of midrises apts.

1,770
Never Logs OffNever Logs Off
1,770

PostFeb 28, 2007#274

leasing Bureau of Land Management land and National Forest Service Land is very common, but I am pretty sure that leasing NPS land is much more difficult. The only time I have seen it done is when a Civil War battlefield wants to keep the property "in the 1860's" and they allow it to be farmed and grazed. I think that leasing the property would be next to impossible for a beer garden or some other kind of long term use that would contribute to making the riverfront a viable entertainment/recreational area. I could see them allowing a farmers market though. That would be pretty cool to have a giant weekend farmers market in the Jefferson Expansion Park for all the downtown dwellers. I hate to put pressure on Soulard, but the way things are going, there seems to be enough room in the game for a few more players. And it would be cool to shop and walk and look at the river on a Saturday morning. (they don't already have a market there do they??)

604
Senior MemberSenior Member
604

PostAug 29, 2007#275

Looks like Danforth's work rules out any redevelopment unless the National Park Service gives up some of it's land utilized for the arch...


City leaders pitch local control of Arch grounds

By Tim O'Neil and Jake Wagman

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

08/29/2007



St. Louis — Mayor Francis Slay and former Sen. John Danforth, hoping to revamp the city's riverfront, want to convince the public and the federal government there is only one way to do it: obtain part of the Arch grounds.



Taking land from the National Park Service would be rare, if not unprecedented. It would require not only an act of Congress, but also broad political and public support.



The National Park Service owns the 91 acres of the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial that includes the Arch, an underground museum, park grounds and the Old Courthouse.



Two years after Slay asked the Danforth Foundation to consider ways to boost the riverfront, they've decided nothing significant can happen without using some of the Arch grounds.



"As long as we assume those 91 acres can't be touched, there is really nothing we can do," said Danforth, a Republican senator from Missouri from 1976 to 1995 and member of the family that owned Ralston-Purina who now works on civic projects. "We might do something cosmetic, but nothing big can happen if we don't free up real estate."



The mayor believes St. Louis needs to build on the success of other downtown projects. Right now, he says, the city is wasting two of its treasures: the Arch and the riverfront. Advertisement



"The Arch has served this area reasonably well over time, but we have not taken full advantage of this great asset," said Slay, who made riverfront development a major goal of his second term. "People go to the Arch and they leave. We need to make it more engaging."



Danforth called it an "embarrassment" that the Arch grounds and Interstate 70 have become barriers between the city and the Mississippi River.



Turning to view the Arch grounds from the 35th-floor offices of the Bryan Cave law firm, where he and Slay outlined their idea to the Post-Dispatch on Tuesday, Danforth said: "Do you see any sign of human life?"



Danforth, a partner in the firm, said he wasn't interested in "entertainment for the sake of fun. We want something that transforms our image of ourselves and transforms the rest of the world's image of St. Louis."



Slay and Danforth were careful to say that nothing about their idea constitutes a specific plan. Among the general possibilities, they said, are an amphitheater, cafes and restaurants, fountains, bicycle rentals, sculptures and an aquarium.



Still, their announcement could spark a heated debate, pitting civic leaders against advocates of keeping the 40-year-old Arch landscape intact.



When City Hall agreed to lease part of Forest Park to Barnes-Jewish Hospital earlier this year, the deal nearly collapsed amid concerns that ceding green space would create a dangerous precedent. That was about land already owned by the city that many people didn't even realize was part of the park.



Danforth acknowledged that the issue of taking over Arch land that features open fields, trees and two lakes could become testy.



"There are going to be people who see this as sacred ground — that not one blade of grass should be conveyed to anyone," Danforth said.



Slay has asked three people to move the idea forward and craft a plan for the public and Congress to consider: Walter Metcalfe, a lawyer with Bryan Cave who was a key player in the drive to build the Edward Jones Dome; Robert Archibald, president of the Missouri Historical Society; and Peter Raven, director of the Missouri Botanical Garden.



"The only way this is going to be done is if there is enormous public support in St. Louis," Danforth said.



The idea has at least one Washington advocate in Sen. Claire McCaskill, who signaled Tuesday that she would vouch for the plan.



"I'm very supportive of what Sen. Danforth and Mayor Slay are trying to do," McCaskill said through a spokesperson.



Neither Sen. Christopher "Kit" Bond nor Rep. William Lacy Clay, whose district includes the Arch, could be reached for comment.



UNPRECEDENTED



David Barna, a spokesman for the National Park Service in Washington, said he cannot think of any instance in which the federal government gave up parkland. The only comparison he could muster is a push to expand an airport runway in Wyoming's Grand Teton park, a fight that has been ongoing for years.



"It is very difficult to take property out of the national park system," Barna said. "It's hard for me to even think of other examples. But we do what Congress wishes us to do."



The park service does not take an official position on pending legislation until a congressional hearing. But Peggy O'Dell, superintendent of the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, said she was surprised by the idea.



"The Arch grounds are part of the national memorial," O'Dell said. "They were designed very specifically to complement the structure of the Arch itself."



Danforth and Slay emphasized they were not criticizing the National Park Service for maintaining the grounds as "passive" space.



"The park service believes it's following the will of Congress," Danforth said. "That's why it will take an act of Congress to transfer any land from the park service."



The Danforth Foundation set out two years ago to find out how to transform the riverfront. One of the early ideas floated was to build islands in the river that could be developed or terraces along the riverfront.



But Danforth said they wouldn't work, largely because of errant barges and threats of flooding. The Mississippi's tendency to flood, in fact, is a major barrier to new development along its bank.



After the foundation spent $2 million on studies, its conclusion came down to the need to obtain land from the wide Arch grounds well above the river. In 1993, the record flood reached only halfway up the grand riverfront staircase.



NEXT STEP?



If the city could obtain Arch territory, it could justify one of the region's most-discussed downtown improvements: a deck, or "lid," over a three-block stretch of the Interstate 70 depressed lanes. The deck would encourage freer flow to and from the Arch grounds.



That project — early estimates place the price tag at $90 million — would require two acres from the park anyway for tunnel-ventilation and other equipment, Danforth said.



He and the mayor were careful not to propose seeking a specific portion of the grounds and said a special public district could be created to safeguard use of the transferred land.



Danforth did say that the middle third, which includes the Arch and its immediate open surroundings, shouldn't be touched, but that some part of the remaining two-thirds to the north and south could be developed.



Slay likened the idea to Chicago's newly developed Millennium Park on its lakefront, which opened in 2004 with a music pavilion, skating rink and bicycle rentals.



That would be a departure from the original idea of the wide-open riverfront memorial to Thomas Jefferson that dates to 1933, when civic leader Luther Ely Smith proposed a riverfront park in honor of President Thomas Jefferson.



Two years later, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed an order designating the area as part of the National Park system and city voters adopted a bond issue for land clearance.



The old warehouses and commercial district that crowded along the old steamboat levee were cleared by 1941, but Eero Saarinen's Arch design wasn't chosen until 1948 and was not completed until 1965.



Part of Saarinen's original idea included museums and other uses on the grounds, all of which disappeared before the final plan was adopted.



toneil@post-dispatch.com | 314-340-8132



jwagman@post-dispatch.com | 314-622-3580


Link to the Danforth report (very interesting read)

http://images.stltoday.com/stltoday/res ... tfinal.pdf



BTW, most of the comments made on STLToday.com by locals sicken me. The region as a whole still just doesn't get it.

Read more posts (187 remaining)