One of the best cafes iv'e ever been in was in San Diego. It was Called the Pier Cafe overlooking the bay and it was so popular because of the view of san Deigo Bay (and their kick-butt french toast). I'm betting the same would go for the St. Louis riverfront. So cafes would do well i think.
Or why not try to do like in San Antonio. If any of you has ever been to the riverwalk there you would now it is the biggest atraction. It has tons of shops and restaruants which would be a great fit for St. Louis.
^The San Antonio River and the Mississippi River are two completely different things. I haven't been to San Antonio but the river through the town is more of channel about 30 - 50 feet wide. My understanding is there are is flood control gates that can regulate the water level. There are attractions and shops on both sides and the river can easily be crossed at short intervals.
Looking at aerial photos the "river" is only 1.5 miles long then disappears underground at its begining and end. As a waterway, I think the River DesPeres is probably a better comparison the San Antonio River than the Mississippi. The proposed Chouteau's Lake and Greenway would probably be an excellent comparison to Riverwalk.
Shops on the St. Louis Riverfront would constantly flood, and retail traffic would probably be pretty minimal especially in the winter.
i wish they had pictures on the website, but during they story they detailed grg's purchasing of an abandoned piece of elevated train tressel to be converted into bike path... I believe its this piece of rail connecting the mckinley, and following it down, to the 'bottle district'
I drive under that tressel everyday on my way to work and I always thought that it would make a perfect pedestrian/bike path!
Transforming these old structures into public spaces has been growing in popularity. When I lived in Paris I always took vistors to the Viaduc des Arts/Promenade Plant?e which was a derelict elvated metroline that they turned into an elevated park. I wish I could find a sight with better views, but this one from the Boston Globe does a good job showing the potential these places have:
Great Rivers Greenway District acquires rail corridor
The Great Rivers Greenway District acquired two miles of abandoned rail corridor for $1.5 million through the Trust for Public Land.
The district plans to develop the corridor, which includes an elevated trestle, into a biking and pedestrian route that connects various neighborhoods north of downtown into downtown St. Louis.
The Trust for Public Land acquired the land from Ironhorse Resources.
Great Rivers said St. Louis is only the third city in the world, besides New York and Paris, that have successfully initiated plans to convert historic elevated railroad viaducts into urban recreational facilities.
"The route will be a wonderful interpretive and historical experience, as well as an opportunity to enjoy the many unique views of the urban landscape of north St. Louis," said David Fisher, executive director of Great Rivers, in a statement.
Great Rivers Greenway District was set up in November 2000 by the passage of Proposition C. It is funded by a portion of sales tax. It is working to develop a region-wide system of interconnected greenways, parks and trails.
This should be pretty cool as we will be the third city in the world to utilize an old elevated rail for such a purpose. Unfortunately the bridge crossing I-70 will be removed as part of the MRB project.
I wonder how this will connect to the trails in Illinois? Madison County Transit's website shows the existing trails only extending to Granite City. Part of the McKinley bridge project is to use one of the cantilievered lanes as a bikeped path.
I'm continually impressed and amazed at the good work Great Rivers Greenway has been doing. They must have some real visionaries on their staff. And apparently, a lot of money!
Wow. I have actually thought on my own, the idea of creating elevated bike paths. Obviously, I'm not the only one. It would create an impressive riding experience, that removes the hazards, and gets you where you need to go quickly.
Bikes and hikes will soar above north city on railroad trestle
By Martin Van Der Werf
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
01/05/2006
A soot-blackened railroad trestle in near north St. Louis is going to become perhaps the most interesting bicycle and hiking path in the city.
The publicly funded Great Rivers Greenway District reached a rather bold conclusion: The best way to build a path among Interstate 70, numerous dead-end streets and warehouses was to go over them rather than around.
I've passed under this trestle many times and lately with the sad thought that soon this structure would most likely be dismantled. That it has been announced that this will become an elevated bike path is great news. An interesting structure will be saved to remind us of our great industrial legacy, and it could become a real gem.
Last October, designers and planners unveiled their plans to better connect the community to the downtown St. Louis riverfront with new attractions.
Now, the people have had their say. And there a number of features and attractions residents of Greater St. Louis would like to see.
Family-oriented activities topped the list compiled last month from a poll sponsored and commissioned by the Danforth Foundation as part of St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay's efforts to investigate redeveloping the riverfront.
HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN TO MINNEAPOLIS .THEIR RIVERFRONT IS BEAUTIFUL WITH BEAUTIFUL PEDESTRIAN ONLY BRIDGES. ALSO WITH THE SKYWAY ON THE OLIVE SIDE MAKE OLIVE A PEDESTRIAN ONLY STREET LIKE MINNEAPOLIS THEY HAVE LOTS OF SHOPS FROM A TARGET TO MARSHALLS AND A SACKS FIFTH AVE OUTLET STORE MARSHALL FIELDS... I DO HAVE PICS
walton wrote:HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN TO MINNEAPOLIS .THEIR RIVERFRONT IS BEAUTIFUL WITH BEAUTIFUL PEDESTRIAN ONLY BRIDGES. ALSO WITH THE SKYWAY ON THE OLIVE SIDE MAKE OLIVE A PEDESTRIAN ONLY STREET LIKE MINNEAPOLIS THEY HAVE LOTS OF SHOPS FROM A TARGET TO MARSHALLS AND A SACKS FIFTH AVE OUTLET STORE MARSHALL FIELDS... I DO HAVE PICS
Minneapolis is 10 years ahead of St. Louis in DT development. Minny also seems to make good decisions with regard to overall downtown urban planning. They developed a GOOD masterplan and stuck with it. Witness:
1) Riverfront planning that works-- No superblock parks which disconnect riverfront from the core (the Arch is more of a disconnect in St. Louis than 1-70 IMHO... always thought the Arch should have been on the east side). Since the original street grid is intact, BOTH sides of the Missisippi in Minny are now lined with residential. A combo of historic rehab and 25-40 story new condo buildings give the area a feeling similar to River North along the Chicago River.
2) Residential That Fits in DT Scheme Relative to Entertainment Districts and Retail-- No doubt, First Avenue in Minny is the closest thing I've seen to Wash Ave. in STL. It's almost a dead ringer for the old streetscape on Washington (pre-Obata), and has the same proximity to CBD. The difference? Restaurants and clubs fill the first floors with offices above. A well thought out mix. Retail mentioned by poster above? 8 blocks of it...centered at Nicolette Mall (street closed to cars) smack in the middle of the CBD...amazingly, Nicolette is damned near a carbon copy of the Olive Street Terra Cotta District. This is DT street level retail that works and offers very few "for lease" signs. A second-floor skyway system interconnects virtually all buildings DT making it easy to shop Nicolette even in January. The skyways are placed on cross streets so the streetscape on Nicolette and First Ave. is "clean" (no STL Center fiascos here)...plus, the skyway system makes second floor retail a reality...effectively doubling prime retail sq footage. The only weird part about Nicolette Mall is that the streets are pretty much dead during the winter months...but the activity does not slow...it just goes indoors.
As for entertainment districts...DT Minny keeps things focused. First Avenue and the attached Block E development are IT and residential overlap is not an issue. One area, not five spread out areas (Landing, Wash Ave, Bottle District, BPV/South Broadway and Union Station/Locust/20th). Residential is placed where it should be...with riverviews commanding $300+ sq ft. Bars are where they should be with reasonable rental rates. In STL you find bars/clubs are along the river and the residents live a mile away. Overall, the big problem is that DT St. Louis is developing a flawed masterplan (or no masterplan...just let the developers run free). In a perfect world, Wash ave would be office/entertainment. The Landing would be residential. The Arch just shouldn't be there...superblock developments like the Arch and old Busch Stadium basically cut the city to ribbons. Hey, since we are fixing the stadium superblock problem, why not....? Naw.
David Fischer who is in charge of the Gateway Greenway, was the parks director for Minneapolis and responsible for many of the good things you see there.
MattonArsenal wrote:David Fischer who is in charge of the Gateway Greenway, was the parks director for Minneapolis and responsible for many of the good things you see there.
That is great news. The parks system in Minneapolis is outstanding. No wonder Gateway seems to be so progressive.... outside talent is the answer... especially those unaware of STL's inferiority complex.
Yes, the Minneapolis string of lakes and greenways are a great resource. Those around the Uptown area and Lake Calhoun and Lake Hartiet are great and beautiful.
However as for the Minneapolis riverfront. Its nothing really. The city has done a great job developing housing along the whole area, but the downtown does not face the river. Its just another area with housing and water to me. Nothing great or spectacular. The mill district, which is being revived into a great residential neighborhood, is truely a supper block. The city has not looked toward the river as its front door in more than a century and the river has long been disconected from the rest of downtown.
As for Minneapolis' long term planning approach, its made plenty of mistakes past and present. The block E took forever to develope, it was something of a local joke. Nicolett, which growing, has not been as sucessful, and while its currently reviving with the recent influx of downtown residents, was a failure for much longer, fighting hard to keep its street level retail full. Downtown is boxed in on all sides by major highways. To the west downtown is boxed in by the Target center and to the east the acres of parkign lots around the HHH dome keep the city from forming a strong consisten urban link between the U's west bank campus and downtown along Washington. Its made plenty of mistakes, but the city has been fortunate in many regards that it weathered its worst years better than many would have imagined.
By saying Minneapolis is 10 yrs. ahead of St. Louis in Downtown revitalization, do you mean that you are sure St. Louis will be there in 10 yrs or do you mean ifthings continue, it'll be there in 10 yrs.?
SoulardD wrote:By saying Minneapolis is 10 yrs. ahead of St. Louis in Downtown revitalization, do you mean that you are sure St. Louis will be there in 10 yrs or do you mean ifthings continue, it'll be there in 10 yrs.?
St. Louis will be there if the economy does not tank. The momentum now is tangeable and critical mass is within reach. I was refering to the lack of development in DT STL thru the last major economic expansion ('95-'01). Minneapolis exploded thru the mid to late 90's.
