urbanSTL

I don't see it as a possibility until city re-entry into the County, and probably not for a few years after that.

On its own the City just doesn't have the $$$ to foot the bill for something like a N/S Metrolink.

The reason St. Clair county could afford their expansion is because they got 72% federal matching funds. That kind of money just isn't made available anymore for transit projects.

Knowitall wrote:

quincunx wrote:The population of St. Louis City, St Louis County,. and St. Charles County has grown by 1.2% since 1970. I say the highways aren't getting it done. They deserve a lot of the blame for the declining densities that would support transit

Lol good sense of humor you got....white flight due to crime and failing schools deserves 95% of the blame for the cities population decline.

Crime and failing schools were more of symptom of white flight than a cause. Contrary to popular belief, white people were not fleeing a ghetto city corrupted by blacks. The city was a relatively stable place until the tax base left and blacks only made up about 1/5th of the population in 1950 and were redlined into certain neighborhoods. The end of housing discrimination based on race and ethnicity, the racially discriminatory FHA loans that encouraged suburban sprawl and segregation instead of reinvestment in traditional urban cores, the construction of the Eisenhower highway system, urban renewal "slum clearance, and deindustrialization all led to the decline of cities like St. Louis.

Well put.

Although this conversation has really gone off the rails. Pun intended.

There is a lot of interesting writing/research on Chicago's black neighborhoods and how the end of housing covenants destroyed them. I would imagine that something similar happened here.

Gateway keeps saying we need N/S metro link to get people to move to the City.....

in 1990, the City was just short of 400,000 people and 0 metrolink miles/stations....fast forward to 24 years...we have lost 80,000 people and gained 2 metro link lines.....schools and crime....

All but one of the neighborhoods along the Metrolink route gained population 2000-2010. There's much more going on in those neighborhoods than Metrolink of course. I'm not assigning them all the credit.

quincunx wrote:

wabash wrote:The reason St. Clair county could afford their expansion is because they got 72% federal matching funds. That kind of money just isn't made available anymore for transit projects.

X County Metrolink was 100% locally funded. I presume we're not doing that again. Would be nice to get the Federal match for that to do the next thing.

I think the issue with the Fed match right now is the future status of New Starts...and the current new starts funds are pretty much doled out.
If MAP-21 is extended i assume that new starts would get another $2billion a year for the lenght of the extention. If there is a new 6 year transportation bill (i put this at 40% chance) the program may not be countined. I think the Obama admin would like to keep it but focus it more on BRT this time around. biggest issue right now is that congress is being a bunch of babies and wont even pass bills that can be passed.

whats being funded in Federal Fiscal Year 2015
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/FY15_A ... _final.pdf

this off topic but I'm just sick and tired of congress and every representative that represents this country including governors of states in this never ending fiasco of a clown show we call leadership. There's nothing about leadership about any of these goonies who we elected into office. If i had a say so i would impeach all their ass's point blank and simple... Clean slate nothing is getting done in this country our voices aren't being heard... Done with the ranting! Anyways it's essential we focus on all realms of transportation things that are more cost effective and aren't going to drain our wallets dry... I just think if we get our heads out of the toilet bowl and actually try adding new jobs then people will follow suit and help contribute with St.Louis's future including that N/S line that people want built..Trust me not everyone is clamoring to live in Chicago Dallas Seattle Austin NYC this is just where most of the real job growth happens to be. More people added means a better tax base and the possibility of that N/S line and beyond getting constructed..Lets just face it Missouri not going to chip in a penny...

I'm going to continue to pile on the divergence of this discussion from its initial purpose, because I think it's an interesting topic.

I think one could definitely make a strong argument that our region's continuous investment in new highway expansion over the last two decades has contributed to the continued population decline of the City. Building new and adding upon highways 364, 94, 64, 370, and 141 in West County, St. Charles, and Wentzville definitely improved access within these areas and definitely contributed to increasing job sprawl in our region since the 90s. With greater job sprawl, more financially mobile St. Louisans found it more advantageous to move to suburbs further out west. As the employment and residential populations moved further west, even more jobs left downtown in favor of clayton. As more jobs left downtown, many city residents had less of a need and desire to live in the central city. And the cycle built on itself and continues to build on itself.

Certainly that's not the whole story, but the job sprawl of our region in the last two decades can definitely be tied to our expansion of highways on the western edges and the subsequent population loss in the City over the same time period.

Knowitall wrote:Gateway keeps saying we need N/S metro link to get people to move to the City.....

in 1990, the City was just short of 400,000 people and 0 metrolink miles/stations....fast forward to 24 years...we have lost 80,000 people and gained 2 metro link lines.....schools and crime....

Gateway City is exactly right. First, if you look at where Metrolink does run in the city, population has pretty much exploded. Second, if you don't think a N/S line built in the 90's or 00's would have led to many more younger people moving near the line, you're in denial.

Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of the overall population loss in recent decades has been from the loss of school age children who aren't really your transit demographic... in fact, the number of adults in South and Central corridors increased from '00-'10. And as I mentioned previously, the parts of North City that would be served by the N/S route still have decent densities.

We could have been so much further ahead in the region if we would have invested in more transit and less highways.... its not rocket science.

So the reason 80,000 people left the city since 1990 (most being school aged children) was because there were roads? People uprooted there lives, sold houses, pulled kids out of schools because there are now roads to st.charles? The same st.charles that was the first Capitol of the state and where people have been living for 200 years? Oooookay..... Look it's undeniable that roads made it easier but schools and crime played the largest role, 90% plus. Have both gotten better since 1990? Yes but I still have friends in the teach for America program in the city that have to find and print lessons online because their schools don't have books and they have to buy their own paper to print in on!!!

Nobody is denying that schools and crime are the most significant problems of the city, but there is also no denying that continuing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars over the past couple decades on new highways on the periphery has contributed to job sprawl and hurt the central city economy, which according to many researchers negatively affects the economy of an entire region.

DannyJ wrote:It'd be kind of silly if every time a discussion of issues in the city came up and people tried to find solutions for particular problems, we all just threw our hands up and said "But the schools and crime!"

The schools and the crime are the result of the entrenched poverty. And you know what helps people climb out of poverty? Widely available public transit!

DannyJ wrote:Nobody is denying that schools and crime are the most significant problems of the city, but there is also no denying that continuing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars over the past couple decades on new highways on the periphery has contributed to job sprawl and hurt the central city economy, which according to many researchers negatively affects the economy of an entire region.

It has, I almost throw up every time driving thru st.charles and thinking how unnecessary all of the concrete poured for the new page extension is and to make it worse, page IX and page X is being planned already.

Knowitall wrote:

Ebsy wrote:

DannyJ wrote:It'd be kind of silly if every time a discussion of issues in the city came up and people tried to find solutions for particular problems, we all just threw our hands up and said "But the schools and crime!"

The schools and the crime are the result of the entrenched poverty. And you know what helps people climb out of poverty? Widely available public transit!

Metro buses can get you pretty much anywhere in the city/county, they have been around for a long time yet people are still in poverty.

I take the 21 to school every day during the school year, and I can say that an enormous amount of time is wasted waiting for buses, missing your transfer because of heavy traffic, etc. The bus system will get you where you need to go, but you need to aim for a rather early bus to make certain you will get there on time. Obviously, the bus system in saint louis in innadequate, but without it the situation would be much, much worse.

Knowitall wrote:Metro buses can get you pretty much anywhere in the city/county, they have been around for a long time yet people are still in poverty.

Is there a point to this comment? I can't seem to find one.

So how many young people would move here if N/S was built? 5000? 10,000? Do we spend $1,000,000,000 to gain 5000 people?

Now I know someone will say well we spent x amount on highways and only had a 1.2% population increase since 1970....which is apples and oranges. highways are paid for by user fees who drive on them

Take the $1b that would be spent on N/S and spent half on a street car and the other half on a best possible BRT system, would get much much more out of that

User fees until we pass the sales tax for transportation. And local streets are mostly paid by taxes other than the gas tax.

Don't forget the extra $billions on city halls, city maintenance facilities, schools, libraries, parks, police departments, fire departments, sewer lines, water lines, gas lines, electrical lines, communication lines. Spreading out adds a lot to our tax and utility bills. The build, abandon, build, abandon pattern costs us dearly. Cities grow up, more dense, and out. We've encouraged way too much out.

quincunx wrote:User fees until we pass the sales tax for transportation. And local streets are mostly paid by taxes other than the gas tax.

Don't forget the extra $billions on city halls, city maintenance facilities, schools, libraries, parks, police departments, fire departments, sewer lines, water lines, gas lines, electrical lines, communication lines. Spreading out adds a lot to our tax and utility bills. The build, abandon, build, abandon pattern costs us dearly. Cities grow up, more dense, and out. We've encouraged way too much out.

Local roads are not part of this discussion. If the sales tax passes it will be because people want to projects that will be presented before vote takes place and it will sunset in 10 years.