Metro is planning on going to the swipe Smart Cards sometime in 2010 - if all goes well.
Actually, Metro is working on a fare collection project right now but it will not go live in 2010; we hope to be testing the system in 2010. The "new" ticket vending machines are very similar to the old ones - the old ones were on Phase 1 of the light rail alignment (ESL-Lambert). On the St. Clair County extension and the Cross County extension, newer machines were used that are upgradeable to accept smart card technology. So those machines stay put while the old ones are replaced. All will be upgraded to accept smart cards. More details are coming soon but I can't release them publicly until they have been approved by Metro's Board of Commissioners - until the Board signs on, nothing is official!
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Board schmoard - give us the scoop. (no one reads the forum anyway - 
)
)Okay, for now how about this:
- Refillable Smart Cards where users "tap" to board
- An online component that lets you add "value" online
- TVMs will probably accept bigger bills and possibly credit cards
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Excellent. Thanks for something. At some point I'd be interesting in hearing why Metro seems to have done a 180 on a number of issues. Maybe a lot of new stuff has been in the works and no one such as yourself was out talking about it. Maybe the new Metro blog helps, maybe Moving Transit Forward is part of it.
Maybe that's all true! What specific issues are you concerned about? Be specific and I can give you answers. It's true we're trying hard to get information out to the public - and in FROM the public - using social media. Our new(ish) CEO, Mr. Baer, is VERY adamant about transparency adn accountability. And the Moving Transit Forward was one big public engagement process to determine the needs/desires of the St. Louis peoples re: future transit.
if you're concerned about going OT, start a new thread and send me the link, Jennifer@nextstopstl.org - questions people have for Metro. My cohorts and I will work hard to track down the right answer to all your questions, time permitting!
if you're concerned about going OT, start a new thread and send me the link, Jennifer@nextstopstl.org - questions people have for Metro. My cohorts and I will work hard to track down the right answer to all your questions, time permitting!
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Do the Smart Cards get rid of the "honor system" that is currently in place? Either I'm slow to catch up on this or too lazy to research, but I've always thought that this was a downfall of Metro.Jennifer wrote:Okay, for now how about this:
- Refillable Smart Cards where users "tap" to board
- An online component that lets you add "value" online
Is that enough of a scoop for now?
- TVMs will probably accept bigger bills and possibly credit cards
Also, can we start calling it the "M"...Chicago has the "L", and Boston has the "T"..."Metrolink" is just a mumblejumble.
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Unless there's a new study or other information showing that the honor system is inefficient or otherwise doesn't work I wish this criticism would die. I suppose I understand the perception and the anecdotes always fly when this conversation gets started, but in reality, the honor system is cost effective and works. And St. Louis isn't the only system that uses it - far from it. The cost to add gates, fences, etc. is in the many millions, much more than would be "saved" if 100% of riders purchased a ticket.
I'm going to guess not. And like Grover, I don't see the "honor system" as a problem. In fact, I rather prefer the "honor system" over "gated" systems of payment.TimeForGuinness wrote: Do the Smart Cards get rid of the "honor system" that is currently in place? Either I'm slow to catch up on this or too lazy to research, but I've always thought that this was a downfall of Metro
I know Los Angeles was toying with the idea of installing turnstiles on their Metro system which is currently using the "honor system." Not sure what became of it, though.
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I didn't mean for it to be taken as a financial argument, more as public perception of the honor system...but the argument won't die until gates are installed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it..and it is probably more cost effective than installing gates. I buy my tickets and will continue to do so.Grover wrote:Unless there's a new study or other information showing that the honor system is inefficient or otherwise doesn't work I wish this criticism would die. I suppose I understand the perception and the anecdotes always fly when this conversation gets started, but in reality, the honor system is cost effective and works. And St. Louis isn't the only system that uses it - far from it. The cost to add gates, fences, etc. is in the many millions, much more than would be "saved" if 100% of riders purchased a ticket.
What I do have a problem with is how it is perceived...especially when the M comes up for vote in the county, or when the rates increase, or public safety concerns, or whatever else people want to point at. If installing gates with tokens or smart cards gets that argument off the table and installs a false sense of security to get more tax dollars on the table for future expansion, then by all means, install the gates.
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^ Very true. If a different fare system isn't in possible future plans, perhaps some education regarding fare collection would help. "We can install $10M in gates and fences to recover $5M in fares, but we don't think that's responsible use of your tax dollars..."
That has been Metro's big failing so far, IMO. Every time Metro is brought up ANYwhere....idiots come out with the rant about turnstiles and how simple it would be to recover lost fares. I have copy/pasted my own rant for re-posting on the stltoday forums and comments areas, something I've done more than four dozen times to date.
If Metro was listening, they'd post a FAQ-style list of all these criticisms and their responses. I've told Metro this. I've emailed, called, cajoled, and pleaded. But Metro doesn't listen. They still pull out the same dreck about one rail line being equal to 16 lanes of traffic (it's not) and other nonsense. They have no intention of responding to taxpayers' day-to-day concerns, no matter how misguided the concerns may be. There's some mealy-mouthed generic wording by Todd Plesko on the matter (and I like the guy), but nothing that fights the ignorance with numbers and figures.
For this turnstile nonsense - post the studies (a Maryland study, I believe it was, indicated that every dollar in saved revenue would cost $17 in capital and maintenance). Or the one I just posted, that the St. Louis system would take forty-five years to repay the cost of installing a barrier system (sans maintenance and sans interest...i.e. it would never be worth it).
Post the cost to retrofit. Post how much is lost in fares. People are not stupid. OK, well, many are. But if you lay it out this simply, some might actually get it.
If Metro was listening, they'd post a FAQ-style list of all these criticisms and their responses. I've told Metro this. I've emailed, called, cajoled, and pleaded. But Metro doesn't listen. They still pull out the same dreck about one rail line being equal to 16 lanes of traffic (it's not) and other nonsense. They have no intention of responding to taxpayers' day-to-day concerns, no matter how misguided the concerns may be. There's some mealy-mouthed generic wording by Todd Plesko on the matter (and I like the guy), but nothing that fights the ignorance with numbers and figures.
For this turnstile nonsense - post the studies (a Maryland study, I believe it was, indicated that every dollar in saved revenue would cost $17 in capital and maintenance). Or the one I just posted, that the St. Louis system would take forty-five years to repay the cost of installing a barrier system (sans maintenance and sans interest...i.e. it would never be worth it).
Post the cost to retrofit. Post how much is lost in fares. People are not stupid. OK, well, many are. But if you lay it out this simply, some might actually get it.
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^ That's perfect. Metro? Are you listening? The realization should be that people are talking about issues like this all the time, why wouldn't Metro be part of the discussion? Why not lead the discussion? I think Metro appears to be making big efforts to connect with the public, the FAQ and other additional efforts would be great.
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It does seem that Metro is being more open with information lately. Perhaps it is because of Jennifer posting here!
If she reads this I have 2 things that always bothered me when on Metro and they are tiny but next time the maps are redrawn could we add that the Civic center Station is also the Hub for Amtrak and Greyhound? Out of towners do not know that the station is there, this way we actually show how our rails are connected to other modes of transit. Also can we name the convention center station, Convention Center/Washington Ave or loft district? I know it is small but again out of towners using the station may find it easier to know that the convention center is on Washington ave and close to the loft district.
So dont spend a whole bunch of money but when they are redrawn I am sure a few extra letters can't hurt.
If she reads this I have 2 things that always bothered me when on Metro and they are tiny but next time the maps are redrawn could we add that the Civic center Station is also the Hub for Amtrak and Greyhound? Out of towners do not know that the station is there, this way we actually show how our rails are connected to other modes of transit. Also can we name the convention center station, Convention Center/Washington Ave or loft district? I know it is small but again out of towners using the station may find it easier to know that the convention center is on Washington ave and close to the loft district.
So dont spend a whole bunch of money but when they are redrawn I am sure a few extra letters can't hurt.
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Just between us urbanists (and because someone told me no one reads these boards....) - Metro IS listening. We don't want turnstiles because they aren't cost effective. You might notice that we were the ones who decided not to put them into this system in the first place.
That piece in the Transport Politic that bprop keeps linking to...well, I keep linking to it, also. Keep doing it, bprop - I followed up with Yonah (the proprietor of the Transport Politic) to see if that link was getting hits from St. Louis, and it is. So the info is getting out there.
Here's the problem. You know and I know that turnstiles cost more than can possibly be justified. I know (and now you know) that Metro actually has an incredibly low fare evasion rate by any standard. (That post referenced above runs the numbers at a 6% rate; Metro's is more like < 2%!) BUT. Sometimes things happen even if they aren't cost effective, to satisfy critics and/or people who get elected by critical people. So until Metro decides one way or another - either "No, we're not installing turnstiles and here's why..." or, "Okay, we're doing it even though we think it's a waste of money, because we are responsive to the people..." - we don't want to go out blabbering about what a stupid waste of money it is. Because then you put them in anyway, and what happens? People say, "Why are you wasting my money?!"
Rock. Hard Place. Welcome to St. Louis.
We're pushing for a decision on this issue. Part of it rests on what happens this April. We may not have a system after April, and therefore no need to make a decision and no money to put in a costly barrier system. So my only advice is, stay tuned.
That piece in the Transport Politic that bprop keeps linking to...well, I keep linking to it, also. Keep doing it, bprop - I followed up with Yonah (the proprietor of the Transport Politic) to see if that link was getting hits from St. Louis, and it is. So the info is getting out there.
Here's the problem. You know and I know that turnstiles cost more than can possibly be justified. I know (and now you know) that Metro actually has an incredibly low fare evasion rate by any standard. (That post referenced above runs the numbers at a 6% rate; Metro's is more like < 2%!) BUT. Sometimes things happen even if they aren't cost effective, to satisfy critics and/or people who get elected by critical people. So until Metro decides one way or another - either "No, we're not installing turnstiles and here's why..." or, "Okay, we're doing it even though we think it's a waste of money, because we are responsive to the people..." - we don't want to go out blabbering about what a stupid waste of money it is. Because then you put them in anyway, and what happens? People say, "Why are you wasting my money?!"
Rock. Hard Place. Welcome to St. Louis.
We're pushing for a decision on this issue. Part of it rests on what happens this April. We may not have a system after April, and therefore no need to make a decision and no money to put in a costly barrier system. So my only advice is, stay tuned.
Hey Midcoast, those are two great ideas. I have passed them both along.
between you and me, I didn't realize we didn't label the multi-modal center at the civic center stops. But, between you and me, my first summer here at Metro was 2007, and I worked the Civic Center station for Fourth of July as a volunteer, and noticed that the signage at the station still said "Kiel Center."
Ahem.
That's been fixed now, don't worry. But I'm just saying.
You know what I like? I like that in the Paris Metro, even if you don't know which stop you want to get off at, you can tell by reading the signs as the subway pulls into the station because the major attractions at that stop are listed on the signage.
between you and me, I didn't realize we didn't label the multi-modal center at the civic center stops. But, between you and me, my first summer here at Metro was 2007, and I worked the Civic Center station for Fourth of July as a volunteer, and noticed that the signage at the station still said "Kiel Center."
Ahem.
That's been fixed now, don't worry. But I'm just saying.
You know what I like? I like that in the Paris Metro, even if you don't know which stop you want to get off at, you can tell by reading the signs as the subway pulls into the station because the major attractions at that stop are listed on the signage.
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I hope the barriers aren't installed, if for no other reason than I want to keep my crazy dream of free mass transit alive.Jennifer wrote:We're pushing for a decision on this issue. Part of it rests on what happens this April. We may not have a system after April, and therefore no need to make a decision and no money to put in a costly barrier system. So my only advice is, stay tuned.
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I agree, if we avoid putting in barriers, our future transition to a free system will be so much easier!!! 
I did an overview of the merits of smart cards here,
http://stlelsewhere.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -card.html
I link to that a lot, but I really want people to know about it. Smart cards aren't just great for transit, but they're great for moving around the city. Vending machines and library fines are the kind of things I never have cash on hand for. I like just waving my card and having it beep at me.
It makes a lot of sense for buses. The time lag from bus loading and unloading is reduced when you've got three doors and five card readers. Just one by the driver's door. People always beep their cards because they want those free transfers.
I agree, we don't need barriers at the stations, but if we do I hope we avoid turnstiles. Some turnstiles generate electricity with people power, but all of them are a pain for a person with a bag. This is especially true of people going to and from the airport. The flipper system is superior. The flippers wack you in the knees if you don't pay and they move out of your way if you do.
I had a very rough transition last year from flawless Singapore to rusty and frozen Chicago. When I got over the turnstile and had to go up a narrow set of concrete stairs covered in ice, I really felt I had returned to my homeland. The fact that the train stalled for like twenty five minutes was awesome too. Oh and at the airport, I didn't have US cash to buy my fare and the station agent didn't make change. He sent me around the way to buy some gum at a store. Awesome country America, awesome.
Rent-a-thug? Asian station agents are there to help not enforce. man oh man, there is a lack of coutesy in American public spaces.
I did an overview of the merits of smart cards here,
http://stlelsewhere.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -card.html
I link to that a lot, but I really want people to know about it. Smart cards aren't just great for transit, but they're great for moving around the city. Vending machines and library fines are the kind of things I never have cash on hand for. I like just waving my card and having it beep at me.
It makes a lot of sense for buses. The time lag from bus loading and unloading is reduced when you've got three doors and five card readers. Just one by the driver's door. People always beep their cards because they want those free transfers.
I agree, we don't need barriers at the stations, but if we do I hope we avoid turnstiles. Some turnstiles generate electricity with people power, but all of them are a pain for a person with a bag. This is especially true of people going to and from the airport. The flipper system is superior. The flippers wack you in the knees if you don't pay and they move out of your way if you do.
I had a very rough transition last year from flawless Singapore to rusty and frozen Chicago. When I got over the turnstile and had to go up a narrow set of concrete stairs covered in ice, I really felt I had returned to my homeland. The fact that the train stalled for like twenty five minutes was awesome too. Oh and at the airport, I didn't have US cash to buy my fare and the station agent didn't make change. He sent me around the way to buy some gum at a store. Awesome country America, awesome.
Rent-a-thug? Asian station agents are there to help not enforce. man oh man, there is a lack of coutesy in American public spaces.
Regardless of the fare system used, a smart card system can still be brought into the St. Louis economy. I read something about the Cardinals using some kind of reloadable card for concessions. We could start there. Then you add libraries, QuickTrip, whatever. Maybe you still buy your ticket from a machine on the platform, but you can do it really easily with your Gateway Card (what else would it be called?). Maybe you use it for the bus and if you buy a ticket for the train with it you get a reduced price.
You can use the same card to pay for tolls from overhead gantries, and even your parking space. The recent audit of the city revealed that we paid more for people to check the parking meters than we get back in fines and coins. We could put one meter in at the end of the block and you could pay for it electronically with your card. There would be no coins to collect. When you come back, you swipe your card again and you get charged for however long your car was there. If you fail to come back within a certain time, it'd be like in Seoul when you get off a bus without beeping. The next time you use it you get charged extra.
Or maybe it is a special card for parking, like with a bike share program, that has your lisence plate, ID, and address in it. Tickets could be sent to your address automatically.
In some countries, you can use smart cards from different companies. They all run smoothly on the same system. Whatever private company makes the cards will eventually earn a lot of money. If we use the technology creatively, there's no reason why it can't be with a home grown company.
Don't worry about out of towners, if they don't have a card they can get a temporary one with a deposit on it. That's how it works elsewhere.
There's no reason why we can't use smart cards everywhere in town except the metrolink. Then if it makes sense at a later date, we can build the barriers.
You can use the same card to pay for tolls from overhead gantries, and even your parking space. The recent audit of the city revealed that we paid more for people to check the parking meters than we get back in fines and coins. We could put one meter in at the end of the block and you could pay for it electronically with your card. There would be no coins to collect. When you come back, you swipe your card again and you get charged for however long your car was there. If you fail to come back within a certain time, it'd be like in Seoul when you get off a bus without beeping. The next time you use it you get charged extra.
Or maybe it is a special card for parking, like with a bike share program, that has your lisence plate, ID, and address in it. Tickets could be sent to your address automatically.
In some countries, you can use smart cards from different companies. They all run smoothly on the same system. Whatever private company makes the cards will eventually earn a lot of money. If we use the technology creatively, there's no reason why it can't be with a home grown company.
Don't worry about out of towners, if they don't have a card they can get a temporary one with a deposit on it. That's how it works elsewhere.
There's no reason why we can't use smart cards everywhere in town except the metrolink. Then if it makes sense at a later date, we can build the barriers.
Jennifer, is Metro looking at swipe cards or chips?
Chips == RFID cards. Just wave them in the proximity of the reader and you're good to go. No more worrying about a magnetic stripe degrading. More info here: http://www.alphacard.com/blog/2010/05/p ... _tran.htmljennifer wrote:Chips, I believe! Not magnetic stripes.
Yep, that's it, then. They are "tap" cards not swipe cards.
No matter what it would be an upgrade but I think the tap cards provide a lot less trouble.
No matter what it would be an upgrade but I think the tap cards provide a lot less trouble.