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PostAug 03, 2015#601

Check out the bit about the Ferguson trains station.

Stl Public Radio - Ferguson's yesterdays offer clues to the troubled city of today
Ferguson was never a manufacturing or business center. The city’s livelihood was found in its access to St. Louis, where the jobs were. In 1904 — the year of the St. Louis World’s Fair — 42 commuter trains a day ran through Ferguson. In 1900, a streetcar line became another option for commuters. The Kirkwood-Ferguson Line eventually became the longest in the area and operated until after World War II.
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/fer ... city-today

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PostAug 10, 2015#602

^ Isn't there some unused rail ROW north of 70 in the area around Ferguson? Since I was looking at some aerials and it looks like there might be. Could some of those be plausible routes along with say converting the 70 express lanes for metrolink?

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PostAug 17, 2015#603



Cool re-imagining of the Southside line....I cant decide if I like this alignment or the Jefferson one more. Both have their pros and cons. Either one would be welcomed.

Courtesy of the Tower Grove Neighborhoods Community Development Corporation's recently release plan.

Some good stuff in there.

http://towergrovecdc.org/wp-content/upl ... n-Plan.pdf

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PostAug 17, 2015#604

^Love it. Already nearly 100% grade separation. Seems like a no brainier.

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PostAug 19, 2015#605

^ By my count, in my South City, Meet Metrolink post, there are 14 at-grade crossings from the train yards to the terminus. Most of these are just industrial crossings and could/should be removed anyway. Only a handful of crossings -- Shaw, McRee, Delor, Gustine, Bates -- need remain.

It's as if it was designed for this purpose! The grade separation point is, to me, one of the best reasons for a DeSoto configuration. If you can get Union Pacific to sell/vacate the line, most of the site prep has already been completed.

I'd like a solid count of how many businesses located along the DeSoto subdiv are rail-reliant -- meaning materials are being loaded/unloaded regularly. My guess is not a whole lot. If the City can incentivize those businesses to relocate to the new Carondelet Coke site in the Patch, UP can then realign all services to the Lesperance, thus allowing a purchase/lease of the DeSoto right-of-way. Bingo-bango.

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PostAug 19, 2015#606

^ I agree with you 100%.... if UP would cooperate this would be the way to go.

Personally, I don't think we can wait for N/S light rail and strongly feel we need to make a push to get decent-level BRT on Grand & Jefferson/W. Florissant and along Olive/Lindell if property owners can't figure out financing streetcar. This would allow us to proceed with achieving viable and significant gains in our system while figuring out how the heck we can ever get more light rail.

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PostAug 19, 2015#607

^ What other lines does UP have in the area that would handle any extra traffic from such a rail line closure? I would be curious to see what is the actual rail traffic and how much is local needs along that line. It would likely require help in any business relocations and possible freight rail upgrades elsewhere to do it. This also opens up some nice TOD along the corridor to develop which also can help in connecting the neighborhoods to the west and east of the current tracks.

Wouldn't using this line over creating a new ROW also make it easier to get federal support due to much lower costs?

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PostAug 19, 2015#608

^ I mentioned that in my previous post -- on the City's southside, Union Pacific operates the De Soto subdivision and Lesperance branch. Lesperance is basically a river runner all the way up to Chouteau. The Chester line runs parallel on the Illinois side.

And yes, in my plan, the City incentivizes rail-reliant businesses to vacate De Soto in favor of the Carondelet Coke site along the Lesperance branch. It would be nearly impossible, functionally, to run both Metrolink and UP industrial on the DeSoto route (it may be possible to retain a single track for Amtrak, but even that's incredibly iffy). In this way, the City successfully clears the path for a full purchase, the businesses get upgraded space, and Union Pacific is more inclined to sell or lease the 9 mile subdiv. And since it's already grade-separated, yes, the construction cost is much lower and federal funding more attainable/useful.

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PostAug 19, 2015#609

^Right, the line that runs between Broadway and the River would absorb substantially all of the rail traffic that currently uses the UP line - which to my understanding doesn't have a great deal of traffic.

Also, I'm not sure how the ownership or politics work, but the St. Louis Terminal Railroad Association basically controls all of the traffic along those lines - although the ownership of the underlying land may still rest with U.P. As for current landowners along the line, besides the dye/chemical plant down along the Des Peres, I'm not sure any of them even use or require their rail access anymore. Most of the short spurs into and around those buildings have been abandoned or torn up.

I agree with RW. This would be an effective and more affordable means of moving forward with expanding capacity in the city while not replacing or limiting other opportunities for future projects - i.e. N-S or Grand BRT.

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PostSep 13, 2015#610

Saw a draft of the Ferguson Report. Says build NS Metrolink. Doesn't say how to pay for it. Pretty worthless recommendation

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PostSep 13, 2015#611

^ I'd think though that it provide good support for solidifying N/S as the priority for expansion... pursuing one of the other lines will be difficult and contentious.

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PostSep 13, 2015#612

^i agree that the Ferguson Report bolsters the argument for North-South, and could help it secure funding from the Feds. It's certainly something to at least be taken into account.

But I don't think the Ferguson Commission's support for N-S makes the County's pursuit of other expansions difficult or contentious. Why would it? The Ferguson Commission thinks it would be good for Ferguson to expand light rail to Ferguson. That's not really a ground breaking revelation. It also doesn't mean that's the only alternative that should be pursued or explored going forward. The Commission is saying "We think N-S would be good." They're not saying "we're against any other expansion of Metrolink in St. Louis County besides N-S. Where do you see the contentiousness coming from?

PostJul 31, 2016#613

Just wanted to throw out some back of the napkin analysis on a potential Westport line to see what you all think (and also try to revive this thread). Here are my thoughts:

Let's assume a Westport line consisted of the following 5 stations:
Ladue
Delmar
Olive
Ashby/N Warson
Westport



A couple notes: Ashby/N Warson would basically be the "Lindbergh" station, but would provide more opportunities for park n ride and development than a station directly over or next to Lindbergh. An Ashby/N Warson station would also provide a good transfer/connection point for the 33, 49, 91 and 94 buses. Again, that bus transfer infrastructure might be easier/better just off Lindbergh as opposed to directly on it. Also, a Dielman or Schuetz station could be a possibility, but I don't see either of their costs being justified as their best ridership comps are probably Sunnen, with just 220 riders per day.

I think reasonable comps for theses stations are as follows:
Ladue: Big Bend, Forsyth, Richmond Heights (some residential proximity with proximate employers and retail but minimal bus connectivity)
Delmar: Big Bend, Forsyth (mostly residential proximity - with a slightly stronger bus connection - the 97 - than the comps)
Olive: Maplewood (isolated, but along a major thoroughfare and bus route )
Ashby/N Warson: Maplewood, Brentwood (isolated, but with above average park n' ride, near major thoroughfares and multiple bus connections)
Westport: Shrewsbury (major park n ride with a large catchment area, with proximate employers and multiple bus connections)

Taking the averaged ridership numbers for those comps gives the following:
Ladue: 510
Delmar: 435
Olive: 670
Ashby/N Warson: 790
Westport: 1,860 (Although not along Cross County, Fairview Heights is another good, end-of-the-line, primarily park-n-ride comp, which has similar ridership of 1,930. Also, although potentially comparable in some regards, I think using N Hanley as a comp would be over-optimistic).
Total ridership: 4,265
Average per station: 853

This compares pretty favorably to Cross County's 752 riders per station. However, the ridership per mile would be significantly lower at 533 (Cross County's is 846).

A Westport line would probably cost significantly less on an inflation adjusted per-mile basis, because there would be fewer stations per mile (.625 v. 1.125), and there would be significantly less grade separation, tunneling, road reconstruction, etc... because much of it would run in existing right-of-way (about 1.5 miles of Page would have to be rebuilt, compared to the 3.5 miles of Forest Park Parkway). Cross County cost about $800 million or $118,000 per rider in 2016 dollars. If a Westport line cost 60% as much as Cross County (which seems possible considering it has 56% of its stations and significantly less tunneling, road reconstruction, etc... which significantly inflated and complicated the costs of Cross County) it would come to $112,500 per rider.

In conclusion, if Cross County is justifiable on a cost per rider basis it seems that a Westport line could be as well. Of course, ridership isn't the only goal/end of transit investment - encouragement of investment along the line, corresponding increases in property value, more sustainable travel/transit patterns and more efficient infrastructure deployment come into play with a myriad of other considerations. Maybe more stations like Big Bend, Forsyth, Richmond Heights, Maplewood, and Shrewsbury at a comparable cost is a good idea, maybe it isn't. Just thought I'd put this out there as food for thought and fodder for discussion.

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PostAug 01, 2016#614

Probably a fair assessment of the route plan. I believe the initial plans showed a stop at dielman, and another of the east end of the westport district.

The Dielman stop would serve the GSA building and be the preferred station for Overland residents for park and ride. The east end of westport could serve Schnucks HQ among others.

I do agree ridership would be weak, especially at first.

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PostAug 01, 2016#615

goat314 wrote:

Cool re-imagining of the Southside line....I cant decide if I like this alignment or the Jefferson one more. Both have their pros and cons. Either one would be welcomed.

Courtesy of the Tower Grove Neighborhoods Community Development Corporation's recently release plan.

Some good stuff in there.

http://towergrovecdc.org/wp-content/upl ... n-Plan.pdf
I think it really goes back to the fact that Chouteau/Jefferson Ave alignment makes a good street car alignment within the city and while utilizing current UP RoW as per your post makes good sense for light rail that serves south county while still providing some pretty good transit access to the city.

I'm still at the belief just by sheer politics and how Prop A was worded that metrolink extension is coming to county first. I still believe a N-S street car line is viable in the city as well as a future N-S light rail. .

PostAug 02, 2016#616

Question for everyone. Should the city push for both streetcar and metrolink/light rail to happen? Even if it means that more likely a starter streetcar line would happen first?

I think the current street running alignment for N-S within the city would make a pretty decent street car line. You could tweak it to get closer to NGIA when its built or you keep it old north st Louis up MLK or even split - every other streetcar goes one or the other. St. Louis For south city, I see a future with street car on Jeff Ave and metrolink utilizing the railroad RoW that goat had posted. For north city maybe metrolink runs up I-70 out of downtown and ties together with streetcar and veers off into north county.

The city gets a fixed rail transit system similar to KC to help development into north and south city while at same time metrolink continues as the regions version of commuter rail. In addition, by keeping metrolink expansion within existing right of ways, whether it be rails and or I55/I70, you keep the capital costs and any debt that weighs on metro operational costs.

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PostAug 02, 2016#617

Yes.

I don't think it matters as much whether its a streetcar or metrolink. I don't think the mode of transit is as significant. I think what matters most is two things. One, the city needs to have a big picture vision of what it really want. Two, they need to get the funding for that vision. I guess you could say Metro's long range plan is their "vision". I don't agree that its the best way to go in regards to good transit for the city, but say its thei r"plan".

They need the money. Any type of fast, frequent, and conveniently located transit would be awesome. That could be BRT, streetcar, or metrolink if it fulfills those three things. As long as the city continues to depend on the county/region to partially fund its transit, it won't get the best urban-oriented transit that suits the city.

The city needs to set up and fund a department/organization/whatever whose sole purpose is to fund capital projects for transit expansion in the city.

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PostSep 08, 2016#618

I agree with Pat that Metro Transit needs a clearer vision. Although until city/county merge I don't think the city should set up a department/organization and Metro Transit should remain separate and focused on the entire metro area.

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PostSep 11, 2016#619

I guess this is the thread for this.

Had to have been a busy/interesting night on Metrolink:
-35,000 Beyonce fans attending her concert at the Dome
-35,000 Cardinals fans attending the baseball game at Busch
-? number of people riding Metrolink from LouFest in Forest Park

I hope they had all hands on deck and all trains running.

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PostSep 12, 2016#620

^Also, I'm sure plenty of people rode the Blue Line to the Clayton Art Fair as well. Busy weekend for transit!

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PostSep 12, 2016#621

I took metro to the art fair and Beyoncé on Saturday. Pre and post Beyoncé trains were completely full, more than the average cardinal game. It was inspiring to see the convention center platform packed with people. Art Fair trains were 50% full.


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PostSep 12, 2016#622

Also Forest Park and CWE stops were almost full every time I passed.


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PostSep 12, 2016#623

Rode from Shrewsburry to Clayton myself on Saturday just to avoid parking in Clayton, and it's not even especially convenient to me, since I'm down in Carondelet these days. It wasn't especially packed, but I was on it mid-morning and mid-afternoon, I'd guess. Not the concert or game rush.

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PostDec 13, 2016#624

I see Stenger is at it again...

Messenger: Stenger backtracks on transit study after donor is rejected on bid

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/colu ... fa745.html

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PostDec 14, 2016#625

Stenger is nothing more than the continuation of the great divide! Lets keep this in mind the only reason the city wants to merge or become part of Saint.Louis county is to hide its high crime rate among other negative things #Chesterfield.
Wake up Saint.Louis County the future is now not tomorrow or another 100 years from now the N-S line is essential for the entirety of Saint.Louis

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