Metrolink Expansion?

AJ1289 · PostFeb 03, 2023#11512023-02-03T22:39+00:00

Neat read on the recently completed LIRR station in Grand Central in NYC: https://www.businessinsider.com/lirr-gr ... ure-2023-2

I hope this doesn't discourage future light-rail expansion or new opportunities for commuter rail options, but the article does speak to a larger issue in general regarding infrastructure projects and how quickly they get out of hand from a cost perspective. Since the region is gathering steam on a possible Metrolink N-S line, I wonder what we can do to prevent cost or timeline overruns so that we don't experience the same pain that NYC experienced? Better yet, what could we do right this time around to avoid another Metro-CCC conflict and lawsuit(s)?

dbInSouthCity · PostFeb 08, 2023#11522023-02-08T15:18+00:00

STLEnginerd · PostFeb 08, 2023#11532023-02-08T15:33+00:00

mostly agree. and "all" is a unrealistically high bar.

Wouldn't it just make sense to tariff countries where it is strategically advantageous, and the dump that revenue back into infrastructure projects.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · PostFeb 08, 2023#11542023-02-08T16:04+00:00

Don't start throwing around common sense strategies where the government is involved.

addxb2 · PostFeb 17, 2023#11552023-02-17T15:58+00:00

St. Louis County Releases Options for North County MetroLink extension

https://cmt-stl.org/st-louis-county-rel ... extension/

PeterXCV · PostFeb 17, 2023#11562023-02-17T16:18+00:00

Interesting. I think it's good that STL County isn't trying to make a completely separate Metrolink bid and tying its plans to the North-South Line. Of those options I'd say the original alignment option of Goodfellow/W Florissant Ave is best, and Natural Bridge/Florissant Road wouldn't be too bad. The rest spend too much time winding among golf courses and single-family home neighborhoods.

One thing that does make me mad about these plans is how Metro chose to build its North County transit center in a former car dealership along 270 instead of locating it at the Community College. Terrible choice of planning, and while I do hold Metro to be incompetent in the extreme I acknowledge STLCC and Florissant also may have been involved in that bad decision.They should move the bus transit center to the Community College and have the Metrolink line end there instead.

sc4mayor · PostFeb 17, 2023#11572023-02-17T21:07+00:00

PeterXCV wrote: ↑
Feb 17, 2023
One thing that does make me mad about these plans is how Metro chose to build its North County transit center in a former car dealership along 270 instead of locating it at the Community College. Terrible choice of planning, and while I do hold Metro to be incompetent in the extreme I acknowledge STLCC and Florissant also may have been involved in that bad decision.They should move the bus transit center to the Community College and have the Metrolink line end there instead.

Yeah, that was a bit of a head-scratcher. The 270 North project does include a dedicated busway between FloVal and the transit center though.

I think the Goodfellow/West Florissant alignment will end up getting selected but I like the idea of continuing along Natural Bridge and allowing for transfers with the Red Line at UMSL. Would be nice to have more than one transfer with the existing system.

symphonicpoet · PostFeb 18, 2023#11582023-02-18T01:55+00:00

^If I had to guess I'd assume they're thinking park and ride, which is probably not ideal right in the middle of a campus. You can make the argument that park and ride lots are a bit silly, but virtually all of our lines, save Lambert, end at one, so that's probably the thinking anyway. If that's the case it's probably better to have a stop that serves Flo Valley well than to actually have the end of the line there. A logical stop might be at about Festival and W Florissant, which is about a quarter mile from the edge of the campus. That's not ideal, but it's also not completely terrible. It's a walk down the C concourse or at the Galleria. (Albeit one out of doors.) It's the Union Station stop to the soccer stadium. It could be better, but . . . the design isn't done yet. There's still time for improvement.

goat314 · PostFeb 18, 2023#11592023-02-18T02:57+00:00

How in the world do they ever expect to run a train down Goodfellow or Jennings Station? I always thought that Riverview and Kingshighway were better options because the ROW median is already there.

sc4mayor · PostFeb 18, 2023#11602023-02-18T12:33+00:00

^ Goodfellow is wide enough to land a plane south of Lilian (9 lanes, including parking). North of Lilian is tighter, averages about 60ft wide to West Florissant, but should be wide enough to fit. I can't see more than one station in that stretch and offset platforms would help with spacing. A small easement could also be acquired if more space was necessary too. Street parking would be a casualty, however.

STLEnginerd · PostFeb 20, 2023#11612023-02-20T17:42+00:00

addxb2 wrote: ↑
Feb 17, 2023
St. Louis County Releases Options for North County MetroLink extension

https://cmt-stl.org/st-louis-county-rel ... extension/

this goes to show just how poorly laid out North county is for transit.

Nodes worth connecting
-transfer station with Blue line at UMSL
-Downtown Ferguson
-Old Town Florissant
-Emerson (although partially moving...?)
-Boeing
-FloValley STLCC

They are all so close but just far enough from each other to make convenient routing impossible.

To me the transfer station is the hardest to let go. If you live on the line the idea that you can get to the airport with just a single transfer is pretty attractive. The second most important to my mind is Flo Valley STLCC. Really hard to conceive of a route that connects those two nodes without plowing through some subdivisions. FWIW from a birds eye view i feel like you can plow through them without great loss but real people live there so its not an option i take lightly.

sc4mayor · PostFeb 21, 2023#11622023-02-21T17:43+00:00

^ To be fair, I imagine any region running transit into suburban communities deals with similar connectivity issues.

I'd like to see two branches get built instead of just one, however unlikely that may be. The biggest hypothetical is the rolling stock Metro plans on using. If an SF Muni type setup can be achieved where you can run the same rolling stock on all lines...then I'd continue one branch down Natural Bridge and link up with and use the existing MetroLink Infrastructure heading towards the airport then north to Boeing. There's a partially constructed flyover heading towards Florissant from the Red Line in the 170 interchange already. You'd be connecting one of the region's largest employers and saving a significant amount of cost by multiplexing with the existing Red Line. Future extensions could complete "Segment 3" from the original Cross County plan: south in the 170 corridor to Clayton and north in a utility easement to Old Town Florissant.

A second branch could continue north on Goodfellow or Jennings Station to West Florissant towards FloVal/NCTC. That would also serve the Climate Technologies/Emerson campus and the significant cluster of apartments around Canfield and Northwinds. Improved bus service on Chambers could provide additional east/west connections and improved service on Florissant Road could connect Old Town Ferguson with the UMSL North station and points north.

I whipped this up over the weekend. Additionally two branches would allow for more frequency in North City. This hits most of your node list with light rail. I don't see why bus service couldn't pick up the slack in between.

The Florissant bound partial flyover:

Segment 3 from the original Cross County plan:

symphonicpoet · PostFeb 21, 2023#11632023-02-21T19:56+00:00

^It's nice to see that they were thinking of expansion even as they were building the very first segments of the system.

sc4mayor · PostFeb 21, 2023#11642023-02-21T21:49+00:00

Just took a look at the distance and a 2-station extension from the existing 70/170 flyover to Frost Avenue would be exactly 2.2 miles. For comparison, the 5.2-mile extension to MidAmerica will cost ~$96 million. The region could probably tackle a short Boeing spur on its own right now. County has about $163 million in unspent transit funds currently...would be even easier if we could get Boeing to kick in a bit and convince those jackals in Jeff City to throw us a few bucks from that multi-billion dollar surplus...

No federal monies would mean no time wasting EIS requirements and while the region waits for N/S and the county extension to come into focus, run this extension straight down the Red Line to Forest Park to allow for transfers with the Blue Line.

goat314 · PostFeb 21, 2023#11652023-02-21T22:02+00:00

sc4mayor wrote: ↑
Feb 21, 2023
Just took a look at the distance and 2-station extension from the existing 70/170 flyover to Frost Avenue would be exactly 2.2 miles. For comparison, the 5.2-mile extension to MidAmerica will cost ~$96 million total. Honestly, the region could probably tackle a short Boeing spur on its own right now. Would be even easier if we could convince those jackals in Jeff City to throw us a few bucks from that multi-billion dollar surplus...

I agree, the city should have been expanding metrolink in short spurs for years now. From a cost benefit perspective it would have been a great way to expand the reach of the system. We already have a good spine of a system. I also think that using the old rail ROWs and yes even highway ROWs would have been the best expansion option for Metrolink.

sc4mayor · PostFeb 21, 2023#11662023-02-21T22:11+00:00

^ The region hasn't really had the money until now though. The County's Prop A taxes currently equal only ~$163 million and we've been collecting them since 2010. The reason for this is because Metro made the right decision years ago to spend hundreds of millions of those dollars ($400 million if I'm not mistaken) to clear out the debt from the Cross County mishap, which had they not done, would have only hobbled any expansion efforts even further into the future. The city didn't start raising money from its expansion tax until 2017. Previous sales taxes primarily went to existing operations. Now, Metro's financial picture is stronger, we're finally racking up some serious sales tax receipts, there is a potential to maybe use some Rams money, and some federal infrastructure cash. The region hasn't really been in this position for quite some time.

goat314 · PostFeb 21, 2023#11672023-02-21T22:52+00:00

sc4mayor wrote: ↑
Feb 21, 2023
^ The region hasn't really had the money until now though. The County's Prop A taxes currently equal only ~$163 million and we've been collecting them since 2010. The reason for this is because Metro made the right decision years ago to spend hundreds of millions of those dollars ($400 million if I'm not mistaken) to clear out the debt from the Cross County mishap, which had they not done, would have only hobbled any expansion efforts even further into the future. The city didn't start raising money from its expansion tax until 2017. Previous sales taxes primarily went to existing operations. Now, Metro's financial picture is stronger, we're finally racking up some serious sales tax receipts, there is a potential to maybe use some Rams money, and some federal infrastructure cash. The region hasn't really been in this position for quite some time.

Okay that makes perfect sense.

pmbender · PostMar 05, 2023#11682023-03-05T04:19+00:00

The Metrolink was packed with STL City fans after tonight's game, and many people I talked with were new riders. I think that's a good sign for a rebound in ridership post pandemic, as well as for the idea of a NS line stopping at Citypark

cueball19826 · PostMar 05, 2023#11692023-03-05T14:48+00:00

pmbender wrote:The Metrolink was packed with STL City fans after tonight's game, and many people I talked with were new riders. I think that's a good sign for a rebound in ridership post pandemic, as well as for the idea of a NS line stopping at Citypark

It was amazing to see. Union station was super busy. Just wish there were a few express trains that bypassed a few stops.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

sc4mayor · PostMar 05, 2023#11702023-03-05T15:00+00:00

We were packed in like sardines on the Blue Line. Which would have made it all the nicer if they weren’t slow rolling on a single track westbound between FP and U City-Big Bend.

I tend to give Bi-State the benefit of the doubt, especially with flood damage and the fact that they’re finally doing some major rehabilitations and upgrades to the stations but for major events like this it would be nice to bypass that stuff during the crush periods.

Still, without a doubt the best way in and out of downtown on a night like last night.

MarkHaversham · PostMar 05, 2023#11712023-03-05T15:10+00:00

cueball19826 wrote: ↑
Mar 05, 2023
pmbender wrote:The Metrolink was packed with STL City fans after tonight's game, and many people I talked with were new riders. I think that's a good sign for a rebound in ridership post pandemic, as well as for the idea of a NS line stopping at Citypark
It was amazing to see. Union station was super busy. Just wish there were a few express trains that bypassed a few stops.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Does the track exist for that?

I think more frequent/comfortable feeder bus service in the city would be more impactful than express service to the suburbs. Imagine if you could easily get around not just the line between Delmar and the Arch but anywhere in the city.

Mapguy · PostMar 06, 2023#11722023-03-06T18:18+00:00

I took the train down for Mardi Gras from Skinker met up with a friend in CWE then back down to Civic. It was so insanely packed that when it would arrive in another station most people on the platforms couldn’t get on.

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goat314 · PostMar 06, 2023#11732023-03-06T18:28+00:00

I think Metrolink to Westport would drive a lot of ridership. Suburbanites going downtown for events and city folks commuting to west county to fill service jobs. N-S is definitely needed to stabilize city neighborhoods and spark redevelopment in the older neighborhoods, but we should never discount the commuter and event aspect of Metrolink expansions.

quincunx · PostMar 06, 2023#11742023-03-06T18:50+00:00

Once upon a time each line ran 15 mins off peak and 10 mins peak. Between FP DeB station and Fairview Heights, there was a train every 5 mins in each direction during peak times.

PeterXCV · PostMar 06, 2023#11752023-03-06T19:32+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Mar 06, 2023
Once upon a time each line ran 15 mins off peak and 10 mins peak. Between FP DeB station and Fairview Heights, there was a train every 5 mins in each direction during peak times.

Let's please keep the memory of when Metro ran frequent reliable service alive. Honestly it should have been a scandal that after STL County voted to increase the sales tax by 0.5% in 2010 Metro never restored service to its pre-2009 level.

Metrolink Expansion?

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