urbanSTL

cwe63108 wrote:I'm not baiting anyone. I'm pointing out the serious deficiencies in the rail system.



The "other side" seems to believe everything here is fine. They are, simply put, mistaken. Ignorance is rampant.



Correcting it by posting relevant sources of information is what I'm doing.

The other side does agree about some things, but you just whine and cry about everything so much that no one wants to agree with you about anything. People may agree about some deficiencies, but they are correcting you down to the reason why they may be there, or just going the complete opposite way because you are so much the other way. And I don't think you ever seem to look outside of our system at the other systems you claim to be perfect. They're not.



You could really be doing something more productive with the effort you exert here.

I really love Metrolink and I'm proud that we have it. But we can't love it the way a five year old loves his mommy (i.e., ignore all of its faults), we have to love it like a mature adult relationship and encourage it to grow and be the better than it ever thought it could. I do think that in some ways they built themselves into a corner. The problem isn't so much that I have an unreal expectation of what the Metrolink should be or could be, I just think that they should have built the design of the stations in a flexible manner so that they would be easy to adapt and change if we decide that we eventually do need turnstiles. I am disappointed by this. I do think that things will change over time, but they could have anticipated these changes and built so that these changes would be possible. It's not the end of the world, but you know-- St Louis may one day be a worldclass city where security might be a stronger issue. Our business district might swell. Maybe one day they will want metal detectors? Terrorism in public transit is definately a concern in big cities, and the metrolink does go right next to three stadiums, the arch, and the Eads bridge. There's all kinds of reasons to anticipate the need for this change. I just wish that they would have thought have them first so that it won't be as expensive as you all claim it will be when we may have to change things.

CWE63108 - Ignorance is not rampant on this forum. There are some people that disagree with you. And some that agree with you. And not anyone as obsessed and angry as you.

Well, to be fair expat, people are calling him "annoying" and telling him to basically go away.

stlmike wrote:Well, to be fair expat, people are calling him "annoying" and telling him to basically go away.

No, I said to go away if you can't post anything new, or substantive. Legitimate criticisms are great, but just constant whining and rehashing of the same thing is not.

cwe63108 wrote:The "other side" seems to believe everything here is fine. They are, simply put, mistaken. Ignorance is rampant.

This is the purest form of baiting I've seen on this forum in a while but I'll bite.



You have done nothing but post the same thing for 5 straight pages. You continure to post examples that are not relevent to STL. You contuinue to whine about everything and demand that everything be done instantaneously. You continue to no read any of the responses as to why this are the way they are, or you do read them, then ignore them and post more irrelevent wikipedia articles. People disagree with you not because they are mistaken, but simply because you are a piss-poor debater.

Lets stop comparing Metrolink to big system heavy rail systems in world class cities like Boston, Washington DC, Chicago and New York. Here are other American medium sized cities and their fare collection systems.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_li ... it_systems



Based upon wikipedia's list of light rail systems in America

St. Louis: honor system

Dallas: honor system

Baltimore: honor system now, going to smart card system used by Washington DC

Buffalo NY: honor system

Minneapolis: honor system now but soon going to smart card. They have been trying for two years to go to a smart card but software bugs have caused problems.

San Diego: honor system

Camden/Trenton NJ: honor system

Charlotte: being built. Honor system

Cleveland: honor system

San Francisco: smart cards

Denver: honor system

Los Angeles: honor system

Philadelphia: tokens

Salt Lake City: honor system

San Francisco: smart cards

Tacoma: honor system

Houston: honor system



So out of 16 I count

• 12 using honor systems

• 2 on honor system but switching to smart cards

• 2 on smart cards

• 1 using tokens



Let's be honest San Francisco is heavy rail with BART, but the Muni Metro is light rail.



I edited to add Houston.

stlmike wrote:I really love Metrolink and I'm proud that we have it. But we can't love it the way a five year old loves his mommy (i.e., ignore all of its faults), we have to love it like a mature adult relationship and encourage it to grow and be the better than it ever thought it could. I do think that in some ways they built themselves into a corner. The problem isn't so much that I have an unreal expectation of what the Metrolink should be or could be, I just think that they should have built the design of the stations in a flexible manner so that they would be easy to adapt and change if we decide that we eventually do need turnstiles. I am disappointed by this. I do think that things will change over time, but they could have anticipated these changes and built so that these changes would be possible. It's not the end of the world, but you know-- St Louis may one day be a worldclass city where security might be a stronger issue. Our business district might swell. Maybe one day they will want metal detectors? Terrorism in public transit is definately a concern in big cities, and the metrolink does go right next to three stadiums, the arch, and the Eads bridge. There's all kinds of reasons to anticipate the need for this change. I just wish that they would have thought have them first so that it won't be as expensive as you all claim it will be when we may have to change things.

stlmike, I never meant any of the things I posted to be directed towards you. Your position is sound, you don't expect ludicrous things to happen overnight. I'm not anti-turnstile, I just want Metro to spend what little money they have making the system viable now, and deal with the future when it arives.

Urban, come on, I think he has some good points. I'm just trying to be fair here, I often agree with you but when you disagree with people you really try to turn their position into complete irrelevance. I do think that St Louis cannot be expected to become a worldclass city overnight, but I also think that we should build things like MASS TRANSIT SYSTEMS to anticipate a possible future in this vein.

dweebe wrote:Lets stop comparing Metrolink to big system heavy rail systems in world class cities like Boston, Washington DC, Chicago and New York. Here are other American medium sized cities and their fare collection systems.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_li ... it_systems



Based upon wikipedia's list of light rail systems in America

St. Louis: honor system

Dallas: honor system

Baltimore: honor system now, going to smart card system used by Washington DC

Buffalo NY: honor system

Minneapolis: honor system now but soon going to smart card. They have been trying for two years to go to a smart card but software bugs have caused problems.

San Diego: honor system

Camden/Trenton NJ: honor system

Charlotte: being built. Honor system

Cleveland: honor system

San Francisco: smart cards

Denver: honor system

Los Angeles: honor system

Philadelphia: tokens

Salt Lake City: honor system

San Francisco: smart cards

Tacoma: honor system



So out of 15 I count

• 11 using honor systems

• 2 on honor system but switching to smart cards

• 2 on smart cards

• 1 using tokens



Let's be honest San Francisco is heavy rail with BART, but the Muni Metro is light rail.

Excellent post. But do not expect to reach cwe63108 with reason. He'll continue to cite the biggest and best systems in the biggest and best cities for his "sources".

stlmike wrote:Urban, come on, I think he has some good points. I'm just trying to be fair here, I often agree with you but when you disagree with people you really try to turn their position into complete irrelevance. I do think that St Louis cannot be expected to become a worldclass city overnight, but I also think that we should build things like MASS TRANSIT SYSTEMS to anticipate a possible future in this vein.

Fair enough. We should look forward I agree, but we can't forsee everything. And many of his complaints weren't even Metro's fault. Should we have built turnstyles in innitially, possibly, but only is we had the $$$. Should we have delayed Metro's rollout so that we could have "Smart Cards" heck no.

I would like to say that I do think MetroLink is one of of the most promising things that St Louis has going for it. Sometimes I do feel pessimistic about this city really getting back in the game, but when something like this actually gets built, it gives me hope.

cwe63108 wrote:Here's anohter issue.



Transit police.



http://www.ridemetro.org/About_Metro/MPD/wel.asp



Apparently someone in Metro is working on this, but they are not yet "police".



Can anyone illuminate this issue?

what is wrong with the transit police? Ever time I have riden this in the last month or so i've seen police officers and red shirt guys all over the place... Frankley I haven't been fearful or uneasy at any of the stations... Is your point that we don't have enough security on the trains? platforms? or both? or another point i'm just not seeing?

We discussed this issue about 8 pages ago. Plus the link you gave was to the Metro system in Harris County, TX.

^We definately discussed it many pages ago when cwe63108 first raised the issue......

I don't think that St Louisans in general give enough credit to Bi-State. I think the problems are rooted in financial support for public transport not just in Missouri, but nationwide. If we received the same type of funding that the roadways get, none of us would be complaining. Every city would have a decent system.



I personally don't see any real problems with the current fare purchasing system. The most it takes is a minute or two. Is it really hard to push 2-3 buttons and insert your money? If you use the system everyday, purchase a monthly pass. If you use it every now and then but not enough for a pass, get a 10 ride booklet and keep some in your wallet.



Gates and turnstyles can still be jumped. Right now, I don't think its worth the money for a cash-strapped system to install them. Now If they decide to build any new lines from scratch, ie: North-South city that don't feed into the current system, perhaps that should be considered for future installation.

crbswiss wrote:We discussed this issue about 8 pages ago. Plus the link you gave was to the Metro system in Harris County, TX.

Oops. Lost a little credibility there.

cwe63108 wrote:Here's anohter issue.



Transit police.



http://www.ridemetro.org/About_Metro/MPD/wel.asp



Apparently someone in Metro (St. Louis) is working on this, but they are not yet "Police".



Can anyone illuminate this issue?

Nice way to move on.

BTW. That Metro system in TX doesn't use smart cards either.