I did call Metro. I was going to talk to the driver after we arrived at Shrewsbury but I didn't want to appear confrontational or hostile. So I called and they said someone would call back right away; so far nothing.
The drivers are probably under a lot of pressure to keep the schedule. You know the company double-talk: the policy may say 'safety is our highest priority', but if your review is based on keeping time and no part of it is based on safety -- what would you do, as a driver?
I'm speculating of course. But we should note that this may be an organizational problem -- not just a few uncaring drivers.
I'm speculating of course. But we should note that this may be an organizational problem -- not just a few uncaring drivers.
This wasn't a scuffle or loud argument. Two people pushed the emergency button..one lady was yelling into the intercom because she was caught between the wall and a crazy dude who was kicking another man while that guy was curled up on the ground screaming. Another person told the driver to stop while dialing 911 and asking him to help this guy who was getting beat up. I don't believe there's any explanation about staying 'on schedule' that could explain his behavior adequately.
I'm confused...bprop wrote:How about today, when a passenger started beating the sh** out of another guy who was doing nothing but minding his own business. The guy was on the ground getting kicked between Big Bend and Forsyth. The operator didn't answer the emergency intercom calls (at least 2). He was alerted to the problem in person and told to get the police to the next station (Forsyth) and stop the train. He did absolutely nothing. Passengers finally got the guy off the innocent bystander dude...and between Forsyth and Shrewsbury, the operator did nothing to help. He stayed on schedule, and the police or security never showed up the entire time. The perpetrator had gotten off and was yelling that he'd shoot anyone who called the police...nobody followed him, including myself.
Outrageous.
A) Noone had a phone on them to call 911 themselves? I'm sure the police could have contacted the driver and would have told him where and when to stop.
B) You say "Passengers finally got the guy off the innocent bystander dude". If they did that, why couldn't they hold him down and/or drag him off at the next stop and wait for police?
C) I'm not sure what the driver could have done other than call police - which he clearly should have, immediately - but what good is stopping the train going to do if the police aren't there? Drivers obviously aren't trained to break up fights or detain people.
Regarding this topic, don't you think "Crime on Metrolink" basically provides ammunition for those which criticize our City and transit as being dangerous? Isn't Crime on Metrolink simply a reflection of the problem of crime within our greater society? Why do we need to target Metrolink?
jlblues wrote:
I'm confused...
A) Noone had a phone on them to call 911 themselves? I'm sure the police could have contacted the driver and would have told him where and when to stop.
B) You say "Passengers finally got the guy off the innocent bystander dude". If they did that, why couldn't they hold him down and/or drag him off at the next stop and wait for police?
C) I'm not sure what the driver could have done other than call police - which he clearly should have, immediately - but what good is stopping the train going to do if the police aren't there? Drivers obviously aren't trained to break up fights or detain people.
We were in a tunnel between Big Bend and Forsyth when the primary beating occurred, as I mentioned earlier. I tried to use my own phone but had no signal like the other passengers.
In reality, the guy was more talked off and then distanced from the guy on the ground with several of us standing between the two. There were too people including women and children directly around him (standing room) who clearly didn't want to be involved to try heroics such as trying to tackle the guy. He was going pretty nuts.
Now I'm confused...passengers are supposed to drag a dude off someone who's kicking another guy and then pin him down, but the driver shouldn't stop the train so that help can arrive because he's "not trained to break up fights or detain people"? If the driver asks police (I'm not sure he did), which police would respond to that call if the train is a moving target making all its stops: UCity, Clayton, RH? How would they know where to go? Whenever there has been a medical emergency aboard a train, I've never seen the driver phone for paramedics and then continue making stops.
bprop wrote:to the driver?
That may have opened another can of worms, but yea.
no, the assailant
Jeff707 wrote:bprop wrote:to the driver?
That may have opened another can of worms, but yea.
no, the assailant
Oh yea, for sure. He may have also pulled out his own in response. He did threaten to shoot any of us "M----F----s" that tried to call the police.
Well, I suppose that makes sense, but it sounds like there were enough people ready to intervene, so why not go the extra step and detain the guy who quite obviously just committed a crime and was a danger to everyone, not just the guy he beat up - who you described as an innocent bystander that did nothing to provoke the attack.bprop wrote: In reality, the guy was more talked off and then distanced from the guy on the ground with several of us standing between the two. There were too people including women and children directly around him (standing room) who clearly didn't want to be involved to try heroics such as trying to tackle the guy. He was going pretty nuts.
I suspect drivers are strictly instructed to not get involved in any crimes on the train, other than to call police, rather, their job is to focus on operating the train safely. Anything else would be a huge potential liability issue for Metro. Passengers have no such instructions, however, and are free to break up the fight, detain criminals, or just stand around idly and watch. Of course, they have their own liability and safety concerns, but no instructions against intervening.bprop wrote:Now I'm confused...passengers are supposed to drag a dude off someone who's kicking another guy and then pin him down, but the driver shouldn't stop the train so that help can arrive because he's "not trained to break up fights or detain people"? If the driver asks police (I'm not sure he did), which police would respond to that call if the train is a moving target making all its stops: UCity, Clayton, RH? How would they know where to go? Whenever there has been a medical emergency aboard a train, I've never seen the driver phone for paramedics and then continue making stops.
I have no idea what Metro's policy is regarding incidents such as this, but I doubt drivers would be instructed to stop the train immediately, or even at the nearest station. It is not like a bus where you can stop anywhere either, it is a safety issue for a train to stop anywhere other than a station - and even that would be a safety issue if he kept the doors closed - and stopping just anywhere and keeping the doors closed might intensify an already violent situation. Theoretically, if the driver was in contact with the police, he might have been instructed to continue to a particular station where local police or Metro security was best able to respond. He may have been in contact with the police, but because of the fractured nature of the police jusrisdictions, or inept Metro security, he did not receive any timely specific instructions other than to continue. Long and short - I don't think there was anything else the driver could have done except to contact police and continue on his route while waiting for instructions.
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Hopefully in the future all Metro Link trains will be equipped with some sort of Robo-Transit Cop that would have been able to beat this guys a--
at the press of a button.
that would be sweet.
at the press of a button.
that would be sweet.
jlblues wrote:Well, I suppose that makes sense, but it sounds like there were enough people ready to intervene, so why not go the extra step and detain the guy who quite obviously just committed a crime and was a danger to everyone, not just the guy he beat up - who you described as an innocent bystander that did nothing to provoke the attack.bprop wrote: In reality, the guy was more talked off and then distanced from the guy on the ground with several of us standing between the two. There were too people including women and children directly around him (standing room) who clearly didn't want to be involved to try heroics such as trying to tackle the guy. He was going pretty nuts.
I suspect drivers are strictly instructed to not get involved in any crimes on the train, other than to call police, rather, their job is to focus on operating the train safely. Anything else would be a huge potential liability issue for Metro. Passengers have no such instructions, however, and are free to break up the fight, detain criminals, or just stand around idly and watch. Of course, they have their own liability and safety concerns, but no instructions against intervening.bprop wrote:Now I'm confused...passengers are supposed to drag a dude off someone who's kicking another guy and then pin him down, but the driver shouldn't stop the train so that help can arrive because he's "not trained to break up fights or detain people"? If the driver asks police (I'm not sure he did), which police would respond to that call if the train is a moving target making all its stops: UCity, Clayton, RH? How would they know where to go? Whenever there has been a medical emergency aboard a train, I've never seen the driver phone for paramedics and then continue making stops.
I have no idea what Metro's policy is regarding incidents such as this, but I doubt drivers would be instructed to stop the train immediately, or even at the nearest station. It is not like a bus where you can stop anywhere either, it is a safety issue for a train to stop anywhere other than a station - and even that would be a safety issue if he kept the doors closed - and stopping just anywhere and keeping the doors closed might intensify an already violent situation. Theoretically, if the driver was in contact with the police, he might have been instructed to continue to a particular station where local police or Metro security was best able to respond. He may have been in contact with the police, but because of the fractured nature of the police jusrisdictions, or inept Metro security, he did not receive any timely specific instructions other than to continue. Long and short - I don't think there was anything else the driver could have done except to contact police and continue on his route while waiting for instructions.
Nobody suggested that he stop between stations. We asked that he stay at Forsyth until police came. It appears as though he did not even call it in. Metro so far has replied to me that it was handled incorrectly, but I fear they're not going to do much with the "internal investigation". Fortunately for me I don't have a dog in this fight. The guy who got beat up would be in a position to pursue it, so if he does not, then I don't have strong feelings about pursuing it.
I'm not even going to address your comments about how passengers should have 'detained' this guy who was going crazy and threatened to shoot them.
I don't ride the Metro enough to know, or just don't remember, but is there anything like an emergency cord or switch you could pull? Most rail systems have some type of passenger activated emergency system that stops the train.
But what really strikes me as odd is why would someone, for no reason it seems, just beat up a 'total stranger'?? Did the assailant even try to take something from the victim? And why would he do it in front of a crowd of witnesses. If he was smart you would think he would try to coax the guy to a part of the train where there were fewer people or get him as he leaves the station.
Just seems odd to me.
But what really strikes me as odd is why would someone, for no reason it seems, just beat up a 'total stranger'?? Did the assailant even try to take something from the victim? And why would he do it in front of a crowd of witnesses. If he was smart you would think he would try to coax the guy to a part of the train where there were fewer people or get him as he leaves the station.
Just seems odd to me.
The emergency buttons were hit (one at the front and one behind the driver) and neither were answered in the minute or so the events transpired. You can tell they aren't answered because they stay lit. I personally talked to the driver through the glass. There are also buttons above the doors, but they just alert the driver. Nothing automatically stops the train and, as a previous poster noted, that wouldn't be ideal unless the train was at a stop.
Supposedly the guy was sitting there and saw someone come up behind him, standing. The victim looked at him and supposedly the assailant thought he looked at him funny. The assailant walked to the end of the train (the victim was in the first or second seat) cursing under his breath...and maybe the victim looked again at him, and the guy charged. I saw none of this (I was dozing) but this is what the victim and a witness said later.
I believe (a) the assailant wasn't attempting to be "smart" and so didn't put much thought into this and (b) he had nothing more than an instantaneous beef with the victim looking at him...or whatever. Just from hearing this person talk later, he seemed like a really nice, mellow guy who wouldn't say anything to p--- someone off, even under his breath. If he did, nobody else heard it.
And I know it's odd; that's why I was moderately upset about this. If two jerks get into a fight and don't hurt anyone else, I really wouldn't care much at all. The fact that the victim wasn't doing anything other than "looking" at someone -- if that -- is what makes it a bit unnerving.
I'm not going to defend anyone's actions or try to convince anyone of what went down anymore. I'll leave it up to Metro, for better or worse, whose representative told me it was handled absolutely incorrectly.
Supposedly the guy was sitting there and saw someone come up behind him, standing. The victim looked at him and supposedly the assailant thought he looked at him funny. The assailant walked to the end of the train (the victim was in the first or second seat) cursing under his breath...and maybe the victim looked again at him, and the guy charged. I saw none of this (I was dozing) but this is what the victim and a witness said later.
I believe (a) the assailant wasn't attempting to be "smart" and so didn't put much thought into this and (b) he had nothing more than an instantaneous beef with the victim looking at him...or whatever. Just from hearing this person talk later, he seemed like a really nice, mellow guy who wouldn't say anything to p--- someone off, even under his breath. If he did, nobody else heard it.
And I know it's odd; that's why I was moderately upset about this. If two jerks get into a fight and don't hurt anyone else, I really wouldn't care much at all. The fact that the victim wasn't doing anything other than "looking" at someone -- if that -- is what makes it a bit unnerving.
I'm not going to defend anyone's actions or try to convince anyone of what went down anymore. I'll leave it up to Metro, for better or worse, whose representative told me it was handled absolutely incorrectly.
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I don't ride the Metro enough to know, or just don't remember, but is there anything like an emergency cord or switch you could pull? Most rail systems have some type of passenger activated emergency system that stops the train.
It's actually safer for all involved if the train goes directly to the next stop and waits. There's a lot of problems associated with an emergency stop - namely being in the middle of nowhere with bad access, like a bridge or a tunnel.
But most train drivers aren't trained to deal with emergencies other than medical, and really, there's no incentive for them to deal with violence on a train, other than call the cops.
Perhaps metro should up their hazard pay? Then you'd see their staff kick som @ss
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Guns can work, but I'm not sure they'd be a good idea on metrolink. One incentive to having guns (and most people have large dogs as well) here (rural) is that it can take a long time to get the cops to actually come (especially late at night) but cities usually have quicker cops. In a city as large as St. Louis I wouldn't think guns would be necessary. I'm afraid somebody would jump the gun (so to speak) and shoot before thinking.
I would think that there would be a simpler way to keep the metrolink safe.
I would think that there would be a simpler way to keep the metrolink safe.
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Well that didn't last long...
<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... ent">Metro changing security companies</a>
Securitas is to replace Wackenhut, just a few months into the latter's three-year contract. It will be interesting to find out what went wrong.
<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... ent">Metro changing security companies</a>
Securitas is to replace Wackenhut, just a few months into the latter's three-year contract. It will be interesting to find out what went wrong.
Doesn't sound like we will find out. No transparency from our transportation agency at all. It's a shame.
Hugh Ferriss wrote:Securitas is to replace Wackenhut, just a few months into the latter's three-year contract. It will be interesting to find out what went wrong.
Wackenhut? If it were me, I would have fired them just for the name.
HAHAHAHA, I can't stop laughing.In a city as large as St. Louis I wouldn't think guns would be necessary.
bprop - are you a healthy male?
If yes, why would you not just step in yourself and calm the situation?
I mean, if a woman/child is being threatened i guess you could sit around and "push the emergency button" or take matters into your hands.
This dude was beating the c**p out of someone and everyone was going to wait until the train arrived at the next stop, for cops to come on board, and then have them ID the guy and detain him? That could have taken 15-20 minutes. At some point, you have to make the decision to handle the situation yourself. Am I wrong here?
If yes, why would you not just step in yourself and calm the situation?
I mean, if a woman/child is being threatened i guess you could sit around and "push the emergency button" or take matters into your hands.
This dude was beating the c**p out of someone and everyone was going to wait until the train arrived at the next stop, for cops to come on board, and then have them ID the guy and detain him? That could have taken 15-20 minutes. At some point, you have to make the decision to handle the situation yourself. Am I wrong here?
EDIT to say this a little nicer than I originally did.
First, you weren't there. Had you bothered to read months ago when this was posted, you would have seen that we did "calm the situation". This was a big, nasty thug. Who knows what he had: a gun, a knife? He could have been high, but he was on a rampage. Furthermore, I was sleeping when the guy first got thrown to the ground, so it's not like I - or anyone else - could have prevented that.
After I got out of the seat next to the window (over a lady sitting next to me), two others and I did get the guy off the victim. Everyone else was sitting there, terrified that this coked up/messed up guy was going nuts. When I went to tell the driver to stop at the next stop, the guy started getting kicked again. All of this happened in maybe 30 seconds. I think you or any other tough guy would have been hard-pressed to take control of the situation.
First, you weren't there. Had you bothered to read months ago when this was posted, you would have seen that we did "calm the situation". This was a big, nasty thug. Who knows what he had: a gun, a knife? He could have been high, but he was on a rampage. Furthermore, I was sleeping when the guy first got thrown to the ground, so it's not like I - or anyone else - could have prevented that.
After I got out of the seat next to the window (over a lady sitting next to me), two others and I did get the guy off the victim. Everyone else was sitting there, terrified that this coked up/messed up guy was going nuts. When I went to tell the driver to stop at the next stop, the guy started getting kicked again. All of this happened in maybe 30 seconds. I think you or any other tough guy would have been hard-pressed to take control of the situation.
I think we have covered this enough. No more. And keep the personal stuff out, both of you.