Measuring St. Louis Against Other U.S. Cities

urban_dilettante · PostSep 20, 2015#2762015-09-20T18:04+00:00

^^ I know I'm a bit of a broken record on this, but I can't take Urbanophile seriously anymore. He pretends to be an impartial analyst but he wears his biases on his sleeve. He pretty much refuses to acknowledge that St. Louis exists, while touting the wonders of places like Cincy, Indy, and even Cleveland. In one breath, he'll claim that architecture, parks, cultural institutions, etc. are generic amenities that don't distinguish St. Louis from any other city, but then extol all the same things about Cincy in the next breath. He'll berate a St. Louis tourism video or one of the "This is St. Louis" videos on Monday, and then on Tuesday he'll go on and on about an "edgy" new promotional video out of Cleveland that is, scene-for-scene, almost exactly the same as the St. Louis video. (All of which has actually happened on his blog.) Cincy has some beautiful architecture to be sure, and it's best stuff is probably a little more elaborate and a little denser than St. Louis' best stuff. But in terms of quantity of "great assets" (e.g. historic buildings, parks, cultural institutions, etc...) St. Louis has more, which makes sense considering it was considerably larger than Cincy at its height. He even admits that he hasn't spent any significant time in St. Louis, yet continues to make dismissive, blanket statements like this one. And maybe I'm wrong on this, but St. Louis became a bigger/more important river port than Cincy during roughly the same period, yet he makes it sound as if Cincy was the queen of the rivers and Chicago the queen of the rails... St. Louis who? Anyway, sorry. That guy just rubs me the wrong way.

^ i think Cleveland has a slightly higher % below poverty–maybe that's why the author picked Cleveland instead of St. Louis.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 21, 2015#2772015-09-21T20:39+00:00

Measuring against other NFL metros, Saint Louis came in absolute last on a look at YTD office absorption with just 472,681 SF:

http://insights.colliers.com/top-10-nfl ... ce-market/

Dallas was on top but somewhat surprisingly Detroit was #4 and Cincinnati was #7.

blzhrpmd2 · PostSep 21, 2015#2782015-09-21T21:02+00:00

My first take is it's interesting that Dallas is also the most highly valued, yet Cincinnati and Detroit, while high on the list, are one of the handful of teams behind STL on the latest Forbes list.

DogtownBnR · PostSep 22, 2015#2792015-09-22T14:38+00:00

^^I would have to assume this data is based upon the "City of St. Louis" only, not the entire region. As we know, that paints a much more accurate picture.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 22, 2015#2802015-09-22T15:29+00:00

^ No, that is Metro data. Saint Louis has been dragging behind for whatever reason(s) on so many levels post-recession era compared to others.

Northside Neighbor · PostSep 22, 2015#2812015-09-22T15:57+00:00

St. Louis versus Milwaukee? Milwaukee is nice; St. Louis feels like it's lost its soul, especially downtown.

stlgasm · PostSep 22, 2015#2822015-09-22T17:09+00:00

urban_dilettante wrote:^^ I know I'm a bit of a broken record on this, but I can't take Urbanophile seriously anymore. He pretends to be an impartial analyst but he wears his biases on his sleeve. He pretty much refuses to acknowledge that St. Louis exists, while touting the wonders of places like Cincy, Indy, and even Cleveland. In one breath, he'll claim that architecture, parks, cultural institutions, etc. are generic amenities that don't distinguish St. Louis from any other city, but then extol all the same things about Cincy in the next breath. He'll berate a St. Louis tourism video or one of the "This is St. Louis" videos on Monday, and then on Tuesday he'll go on and on about an "edgy" new promotional video out of Cleveland that is, scene-for-scene, almost exactly the same as the St. Louis video. (All of which has actually happened on his blog.) Cincy has some beautiful architecture to be sure, and it's best stuff is probably a little more elaborate and a little denser than St. Louis' best stuff. But in terms of quantity of "great assets" (e.g. historic buildings, parks, cultural institutions, etc...) St. Louis has more, which makes sense considering it was considerably larger than Cincy at its height. He even admits that he hasn't spent any significant time in St. Louis, yet continues to make dismissive, blanket statements like this one. And maybe I'm wrong on this, but St. Louis became a bigger/more important river port than Cincy during roughly the same period, yet he makes it sound as if Cincy was the queen of the rivers and Chicago the queen of the rails... St. Louis who? Anyway, sorry. That guy just rubs me the wrong way.

^ i think Cleveland has a slightly higher % below poverty–maybe that's why the author picked Cleveland instead of St. Louis.

YES. You nailed it. For a so-called "expert" on cities, Aaron Renn seems a bit ignorant on St. Louis and other cities that don't fit his experiential narrative. I doubt he's spent more than a weekend here, and he probably didn't venture out of downtown. Richard Florida is no different. They should know better than to take St. Louis at face value. We may not look great on paper, but there are so many intangibles that make this city amazing that are impossible to quantify. Too bad these guys couldn't visit last weekend-- with our perfect weather and an endless variety of festivals and events, St. Louis shined brightly.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 22, 2015#2832015-09-22T17:22+00:00

Well he just peed all over Indianapolis if that's any consolation!

DogtownBnR · PostSep 22, 2015#2842015-09-22T19:52+00:00

Ran across this article on Columbus Ohio, one of the few Midwest cities actually growing at a good pace. I know they the state capital there and a major state university, but they also have two other things we covet here in STL. A strong Downtown core, as the centerpiece of the metro area and jobs keeping young people in town. Nothing groundbreaking, but reiterates the importance of supporting your downtown.
I know this article is old, but Columbus is keeping up the pace.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... ising.html

Northside Neighbor · PostSep 23, 2015#2852015-09-23T00:07+00:00

The number one problem holding StL back is division. We need to work through and resolve our differences.

MarkHaversham · PostSep 23, 2015#2862015-09-23T00:30+00:00

Northside Neighbor wrote:The number one problem holding StL back is division. We need to work through and resolve our differences.

Shut up no we don't you're wrong.

Northside Neighbor · PostSep 23, 2015#2872015-09-23T11:49+00:00

I see what you did there! But seriously, until we start addressing some of our regional divisions, we're not going to progress as we should.

A stat I heard yesterday is that Missouri is one of only 3 states in the country to not have growth in its immigrant population. We are losing immigrants.

Our well documented Ferguson related divisions are a national/worldwide narrative.

Until we start working on ourselves as a community, and getting some unity, all the talk about other comparisons is secondary.

Our regional divisions are the herd of elephants charging through the room.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 23, 2015#2882015-09-23T13:55+00:00

DogtownBnR wrote:Ran across this article on Columbus Ohio, one of the few Midwest cities actually growing at a good pace. I know they the state capital there and a major state university, but they also have two other things we covet here in STL. A strong Downtown core, as the centerpiece of the metro area and jobs keeping young people in town. Nothing groundbreaking, but reiterates the importance of supporting your downtown.
I know this article is old, but Columbus is keeping up the pace.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... ising.html

To be honest, downtown Columbus is a bit sleepy imo compared to its Buckeye peers Cleveland and Cincinnati. Like all cities it has seen residential gains and renewed momentum downtown but I don't think it's quite at the level of most of its Midwest peers. At least that is my perception (as a former Buckeye).

DogtownBnR · PostSep 23, 2015#2892015-09-23T14:46+00:00

Does Cincy have the sprawl that we do in the STL metro area? I've been curious, due to the fact that Cincy has built a 41 story tower and some nice residential projects the past few years. It seems like their downtown is the epicenter of the business community in that town, while 'suburban campuses' are all too common here. I always imagine if just half of the major companies in STL, were located Downtown. Our skyline would rival Minneapolis, Pittsburgh and other peer cities. Hopefully, once we get all of the vacant buildings done and fill building under-leased, we can get our own new tower. We really need a 40-50 story tower, to fill the skyline. Maybe on the old 'Bottle District' site.

wabash · PostSep 23, 2015#2902015-09-23T16:00+00:00

^Cincy has a ton of far-reaching sprawl, which is probably equal to if not worse than that in St. Louis. But the key difference maker as you've mentioned is that some major corporations (P&G, Macy's, Fifth Third, Great American, and Western & Southern among others) have all kept their HQs Downtown. Also, Cincy doesn't have anything comparable to Clayton as a 2nd CBD option.

Can't say I see the "need" for a 40-50 story tower to fill the skyline. The AT&T Center seems to be doing just that - and nothing else.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 23, 2015#2912015-09-23T16:07+00:00

^ Don't know if it has more office sprawl than here but it does have a lot. And Covington across the river is a bit of a mini-Clayton. But you're right Downtown keeping its F500 companies has been huge and getting GE to commit to the Banks over competing proposals within the region for its new global operations center was a big win and vote of confidence.

As for here, both downtown Clayton and STL would be so much better if just half of the corporate office located in sprawlsville were split between the two CBDs. Unlike a lot of other metros, you don't really see a whole lot of action with existing companies choosing to relocate to a CBD.

PostSep 25, 2015#2922015-09-25T01:27+00:00

Cincy has been killing it on some key economic measures....

3,9% unemployment rate, the lowest since 2001
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... low-4.html

2,5% gdp growth, well above the national average of 2.3% for metros and tops in the Midwest for larger metros
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2 ... /72689970/

"in the Midwest, Cincinnati’s growth outpaced Detroit’s 2.2 percent growth, Minneapolis’ and Kansas City’s 2.0 percent growth, and Columbus’ 1.9 percent growth."

St. Louis's econony expanded at 1.7%, which was the best in several years but below the national average and just 7th best of the 10 biggest Midwest metros. It did better than Cleveland, Indianapolis and Milwaukee... those last two grew just .9% and .8%, respectively,

wabash · PostSep 25, 2015#2932015-09-25T02:42+00:00

Pittsburgh (which I consider a Midwestern city) appears to be doing better than any of them, with a 2.9% growth rate.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 25, 2015#2942015-09-25T14:04+00:00

^ yeah, the old argument on where Pittsburgh lies.... it's kind of Midwest/Northeastern/Great Lakes and most certainly Appalachian and old Rust Belt. It is interesting though the Cincy paper didn't see it as Midwest but as a peer city.

Anyway. I guess I'd go with how Pittsburgers see themselves, if they say their Midwest then that's fine by me. And that is impressive growth.

blzhrpmd2 · PostSep 25, 2015#2952015-09-25T16:40+00:00

I wouldn't say Cincinnati's sprawl is as bad as STL's. Many similarities for sure, but one difference I see is that there is less sprawl which leads to rural nothingness and an accompanying mindset that sees urban as "rival." There's decent proximity to Indianapolis, Louisville, Columbus, Dayton, etc. In Cincinnati, if you start off on an analogous drive out of town as soon as you get "out there" you begin to bleed into suburban Dayton. While not a major metropolis, I would think there is more urban support in those areas than say O'Fallon, Wentzville, or Farmington. The University of Dayton and Miami, also provide a local constant stream of young professionals many of which are regional and looking for places to find good jobs. Many are comfortable given their midwest roots with Cincinnati as a manageable "bigger city" in which to have some fun, have good entertainment and cultural options, but also put down roots.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 25, 2015#2962015-09-25T17:34+00:00

^ That's a good point.... same, and probably even more so, for Cleveland and Detroit, which have the separate MSAs of Ann Arbor and Akron that are just the next county over. Actually it is surprising there isn't even more office sprawl in between Cleveland and Akron than there is.

urban_dilettante · PostSep 25, 2015#2972015-09-25T18:59+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote: 3,9% unemployment rate, the lowest since 2001
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 40eb0.html

^ Driver loses control of car, crashes into St. Louis center for pregnant teens?

roger wyoming II · PostSep 25, 2015#2982015-09-25T19:04+00:00

^ What in the Sam Hill? corrected the link:
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... low-4.html

PostSep 29, 2015#2992015-09-29T01:31+00:00

Well, Downtown Detroit already has had a monster week for announcements and its only Monday:

Amazon expanding Detroit presence:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/busine ... /72963280/

(looks to be at least doubling the current 100 employees)

Dan Gilbert's Bedrock sells Detroit building to Lear in landmark deal:
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/i ... s_fir.html

That Lear project looks really cool with the innovation and design center not only bringing 150 workers from the suburbs into an 1880's building but also involving a partnership with college students in Midtown who'll be able to hop on the streetcar to downtown,

Construction is also beginning this week on a Downtown apartment building atop an existing garage (the garage was built pre-recession but the planned apartments are only now getting underway) and also on an apartment building on the near riverfront.

DogtownBnR · PostSep 29, 2015#3002015-09-29T15:04+00:00

I was just glancing at the STL development thread on Skyscraper Forum. I was feeling pretty good, after seeing everything going on in the City. Then, I had to click on the Nashville development thread and burst my STL bubble. Now I know Nashville has been booming for some time, but that thread is competing with Austin. This begs the question; what can we start doing, to move in that direction? Bringing in new people is the key... I know that. .. Keeping existing people, primarily young people.. I get it. Right to work... No income tax... I get it.... STL has great public institutions, great universities, great healthcare industry, booming financial services industry.. etc.. etc... All of things that are attracting people to Nashville. Not to mention the 'cool factor', thanks to the music industry. I think our low self-esteem is a big issue. We may not have a cool music industry, but we have other assets. They have a diverse economy there. So do we, but I guess where we are lacking is manufacturing. While we still make things in STL, we've lost so much. Could right to work and no income taxes in Missouri, reverse that or are there other things we need to do as a region, to grow. While I agree, we need to fix our problems displayed for the world to see in Ferguson, I think if we had a growing economy like Nashville, we'd still be growing. What steps can be taken to start moving in that direction? When I see a Nashville thread like that, it amazes me how much they are growing, with no beaches and mountains still hours away. They are land-locked in the middle of the US, yet booming beyond anyone's wildest imagination. We should be taking notes here in STL. I think Cortex is a great example of things we as a region have started to do, to spur growth. Obviously, we must eliminate the city-county divide. What are some of the MAJOR things we can do to move in the direction that Nashville is moving?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthr ... 4&page=108

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2 ... /11097963/

Measuring St. Louis Against Other U.S. Cities

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