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PostNov 05, 2007#176

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I would say the park is for the taxpayers who support it.
Ha. The taxpayers pay taxes to the city, which provides services to all people residing in the city. And are you assuming that homeless people aren't (or haven't been) taxpayers?


The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
You're assuming they are mentally ill. Most are not.
Who said anything about "most of them" being mentally-ill? As a person who has worked extensively with the homeless population - families, adults and teens - many of them are. And any true advocate for the homeless would tell you so.
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PostNov 05, 2007#177

Arch City wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
You're assuming they are mentally ill. Most are not.
Who said anything about "most of them" being mentally-ill? As a person who has worked extensively with the homeless population - families, adults and teens - many of them are. And any true advocate for the homeless would tell you so.


I know several people in the social services arena. The truthful ones will tell you that the idea that large numbers of homeless are mentally ill is a canard that is perpepuated by those who don't feel that anyone should be responsible for their actions.



And to answer your next question in advance, they continue to work in social services to help the folks who truly are needy.
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PostNov 05, 2007#178

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I know several people in the social services arena. The truthful ones will tell you that the idea that large numbers of homeless are mentally ill is a canard that is perpepuated by those who don't feel that anyone should be responsible for their actions.



And to answer your next question in advance, they continue to work in social services to help the folks who truly are needy.
TCS, who said anything about "large numbers"? You keep making this bigger than what is necessary. And truth be told, social service workers aren't necessarily mental health workers. There is a difference.



Last, I would venture to say that anyone who chooses to stay at Rice's downtown shelter is "truly needy". I mean who would want to stay there except the "truly needy" or mentality ill?
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PostNov 05, 2007#179

There has to be something done about lucus park. As someone who is considering buying downtown, lucus park is a big factor that is holding me off form buying. I am sure many are too, especially the ones looking at park pacific, and FORD, as well as all the lofts facing south on washington.



I would say "move them" farther west, or north, and build some public facilities for them. Where do they go to the bathroom anyways? Can anyone answer this?



Lucus park is not their home, so i am not being mean by saying that they should move their home to another park. If anything, it should be a win win for all. Higher property values = more tax dollars = more help for the homeless. As of now, downtown isnt getting any taxes from me. I am still on the fence, and something needs to change in order for me buy downtown. Lucus park would be huge.
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PostNov 05, 2007#180

zink wrote:There has to be something done about lucus park. As someone who is considering buying downtown, lucus park is a big factor that is holding me off form buying. I am sure many are too, especially the ones looking at park pacific, and FORD, as well as all the lofts facing south on washington.



I would say "move them" farther west, or north, and build some public facilities for them. Where do they go to the bathroom anyways? Can anyone answer this?



Lucus park is not their home, so i am not being mean by saying that they should move their home to another park. If anything, it should be a win win for all. Higher property values = more tax dollars = more help for the homeless. As of now, downtown isnt getting any taxes from me. I am still on the fence, and something needs to change in order for me buy downtown. Lucus park would be huge.


What is needed to create change is for more people to move downtown and be part of the soluction. So, move downtown and help effect change - the city and you will be better for it!
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PostNov 05, 2007#181

Wow, haven't checked this in a few days and its received a bit of activity since.



Just to share some basic philosophy. The park is for all to enjoy in accordance with applicable city ordinances. The dog park would only be a subset of the whole park, specifically the fenced-in area where children's equipment currently resides. Improvements will not be just tangible, the intangible elements will be just as important if not moreso. Specifically, taking pride in the area which can be manifested by residents banding together to clean it, helping to enforce regs, and of course utilizing the park.



Again, this group's mission is to improve the park only. In the previous presentation, it was outlined that social service is outside the scope of this group. But let it be known that the city and many groups are active in this respect and from what I sense, the level of service that homeless receive is likely to improve.



Dog parks are an excellent means of forming a sense of community and currently the market in this area is underserved. Additionally, the park is in the backyard of so many downtown loft residents which serves to make it a prime location. Parks are for people to use and enjoy, and that's the point of what we are working to accomplish.
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PostNov 05, 2007#182

Arch City wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Dogs have owners. It's for them too.
With that argument, one could say the park is for the homeless too. After all, they were there before the pooping dogs who owners probably don't clean up after. Dog owners just need share the park as it is for ALL citizens. They need to accept this fact until the homeless problem is addressed and mitigated by the city.


Arch City wrote:I wonder what are advocates of this dog park doing to help the homeless/mentally-ill population of downtown?

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Personally? Nothing.


Figures. :wink:


The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
(although I do donate money to mentally ill people, but none of them live downtown.)




Oh well, maybe you should donate to Larry Rice's shelter. That way you'd know a cornucopia of them who live downtown.
The homeless problem has already been addressed by both the city and neighborhood groups, and there are many different places (both government and private) that the homeless (mentally-ill, drug-addicted, disabled, or just plain lazy) can go to for free assistance.



The Horizon Club, located downtown at 23rd and Pine, is the best place for the homeless to find assistance. NLEC is the worst and only keeps them homeless.







Also, what makes you think that most of the urine and feces in Lucas Park is from the dogs? I frequently see the homeless using the park as a toilet--despite the fact that there is a nearby portable potty.
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PostNov 05, 2007#183

You can have the same intangible paradigm shift that goes with facilitating a rebranding of the park to fit a new user profile, proactively of course, by just getting rid of the homeless and making Lucas Park a very elegant place again.



Keep the dogs out. If the lofties are too lazy to walk their beasts to one of the many histrorically uninteresting parks downtown, then maybe they should get rid of Fido and Spot.
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PostNov 05, 2007#184

innov8ion wrote:The dog park would only be a subset of the whole park, specifically the fenced-in area where children's equipment currently resides.
What!?! :o I thought that the whole park was going to turn into a dog park. :? Now we need an additional solution to rid the park of the homeless who use the park as a toilet and garbage dump. I highly doubt that James H. Lucas intended for that land to become a landfill.



Where will the turtle go?



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PostNov 05, 2007#185

Resurrectus wrote:The homeless problem has already been addressed by both the city and neighborhood groups, and there are many different places (both government and private) that the homeless (mentally-ill, drug-addicted, disabled, or just plain lazy) can go to for free assistance.



The Horizon Club, located downtown at 23rd and Pine, is the best place for the homeless to find assistance. NLEC is the worst and only keeps them homeless.
Apparently it hasn't been addressed well enough considering that there are still homeless and mentally-ill people on the streets of downtown.


Resurrectus wrote:
Also, what makes you think that most of the urine and feces in Lucas Park is from the dogs? I frequently see the homeless using the park as a toilet--despite the fact that there is a nearby portable potty.
Well dogs, like any other living species, have to blow it out of the rear. If dogs along with their owners are using the park, I am sure a lot of the fecal chunks in Lucas Park are from four-legged animals.



Seriously, I don't think any species should be leaving logs in the park for visitor's viewing displeasure. Nonetheless, if humans are pooping and pee peeing in the park, it is a testament to a larger societal problem.
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PostNov 05, 2007#186

^^ While you were being serious, that may have been one of the funniest posts I've ever read.



With your permission, I think some of that may make it in to my new UrbanSTL signature.
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PostNov 05, 2007#187

Arch City wrote:Nonetheless, if humans are pooping and pee peeing in the park, it is a testament to a larger societal problem.


No, it is a testament to those who are pooping and pee peeing in the park. Nothing more.
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PostNov 05, 2007#188

There has to be something done about lucus park. As someone who is considering buying downtown, lucus park is a big factor that is holding me off form buying


Don't buy here. Find another neighborhood. Take it from someone who has lived in downtown St. Louis for 15 years (and loves it) and in downtowns in several other cities. You'll hate it. Promise.



There's a great "new construction" condo building on Clayton Road. Try there.



One of the great things about the region: there's something for everyone . . . within reach, too.
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PostNov 05, 2007#189

Right, something for everyone. For those people who enjoy watching people excrete bodily waste, try these apartments with views of Lucas Park.



Even though the urban minded resident should be able to tolerate seeing a homeless guy and some grit once in a while, some of our downtown parks are completely out of hand.
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PostNov 05, 2007#190

^ Hold on - so only people who enjoy seeing the homeless piss in a city park should live downtown!?!?!? That's rediculous. It's just my very humble opinion, but we need people who do care to move downtown. Downtown St. Louis has become like it is and "houses" the homeless like it does because not enough people care enough to change it. Those with political capital and resources haven't lived downtown for many years. This is what needs to change. I can only hope that you're joking when you tell someone who doesn't like the current state of Lucas Park that they should move to somewhere on Clayton Road.
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PostNov 05, 2007#191

Juice13610 wrote:^^ While you were being serious, that may have been one of the funniest posts I've ever read.



With your permission, I think some of that may make it in to my new UrbanSTL signature.
I was trying to be serious and humorous. And if you desire, use it.

PostNov 05, 2007#192

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:No, it is a testament to those who are pooping and pee peeing in the park. Nothing more.
Wrong.



Not that it is right, but it is a testament that they have fewer options where they can poop or pee and pee as they are homeless. In my opinion, a tree is better than a shi**y port-a-potty that rough butts have used any day. And try being homeless with the intent to go into Mike Shannon's, St. Louis Bread Company or San Sai to poop or pee pee.



It ain't gonna happen.
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PostNov 05, 2007#193

Arch City wrote:Nonetheless, if humans are pooping and pee peeing in the park, it is a testament to a larger societal problem.
Society has done about all that they can do:
  • provided nearby public toilets.
  • provided nearby places for homeless to go to for free assistance.
The only thing more that society can do is:
  • pay for a fence to be built around the park.
  • pay for 24-hour security at the park.
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PostNov 05, 2007#194

Resurrectus wrote:
Arch City wrote:Nonetheless, if humans are pooping and pee peeing in the park, it is a testament to a larger societal problem.
Society has done about all that they can do:
  • provided nearby public toilets.
  • provided nearby places for homeless to go to for free assistance.
The only thing more that society can do is:
  • pay for a fence to be built around the park.
  • pay for 24-hour security at the park.


I happen to agree for the most part. I do think, though, that "society" needs to recognize the benefits of not herding a substantial number of people in need of/utilizing social services to congregate all in one place. I've said this before, but I have to believe that the developers for the Park Pacific and the Ford are all over this issue as it most directly affects them - in terms of $$.
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PostNov 05, 2007#195

Arch City wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:No, it is a testament to those who are pooping and pee peeing in the park. Nothing more.
Wrong.



Not that it is right, but it is a testament that they have fewer options where they can poop or pee and pee as they are homeless.


Wrong.



They have fewer options because of their actions.



By blaming society, you are, by extension, blaming me, since I am a member of society. Trust me, I am ZERO percent to blame for their problems.



I know you can't bring yourself to hold the homeless responsible for a single one of their actions, but you also can't shift the blame to the innocent.
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PostNov 05, 2007#196

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Trust me, I am ZERO percent to blame for their problems.


What would be great is if you were partly to thank for any solutions.
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PostNov 05, 2007#197

Grover wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Trust me, I am ZERO percent to blame for their problems.


What would be great is if you were partly to thank for any solutions.


I have the solution. Except the whiners won't like it.
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PostNov 05, 2007#198

Society is to blame for homelessness just like a 25 year old murderer's parents are to blame for their son being a murderer, just like a restaurant owner is to blame for Michael Devlin's kidnapping while an employee of Imo's, etc, etc.
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PostNov 05, 2007#199

stlmike wrote:Right, something for everyone. For those people who enjoy watching people excrete bodily waste, try these apartments with views of Lucas Park.
Try a different perspective: it's like a 24 hour a day reality TV show. Think of all the homeless drama that happens there. Could make for good late night TV.
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PostNov 05, 2007#200

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Wrong.



They have fewer options because of their actions.



By blaming society, you are, by extension, blaming me, since I am a member of society. Trust me, I am ZERO percent to blame for their problems.



I know you can't bring yourself to hold the homeless responsible for a single one of their actions, but you also can't shift the blame to the innocent.
Hmm. This isn't about "guilt" or "innocence", TCS. We as a society need to take a serious look at the crisis of homelessness in this country. Most of the homeless are children.



Well the truth of the matter is, their problems become your problem when they start clucking you upside the head because they need to be in a mental health institution vs. a homeless shelter downtown.



Their problems become your problem when they are panhandling downtown and you can't even enjoy a simple stroll because they are begging for money.



Their problems become your problem when you can't go to the library to read a book in peace because a homeless or mentally-ill person is stinking up the joint.



Their problems become your problem when you see their doo doo sitting in the park like it is fertilizer for the plants planted by Gateway Greening.



Their problems become your problem when you get a good whiff of urine while dining outside on Washington Avenue.



Their problems become your problem when visitors and conventioneers from other cities say, "Damn, St. Louis sure does have a lot of homeless and mentally-ill people downtown."



As a member of society, you should be concerned about their problems because their problems manifest into your and society's problems.



But oh, I forgot.................


Arch City wrote:I wonder what are advocates of this dog park doing to help the homeless/mentally-ill population of downtown?

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Personally? Nothing.


So if you get clucked upside the head by a homeless or mentally-ill person while downtown, remember you did nothing to help prevent it. :wink:
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