urbanSTL

^ But the point that's been made time and time again is that there are a number of very large vacant lots/surface parking lots in the CWE. The neighborhood would actually be more vibrant if these blocks were to b filled in with 3-5 story buildings rather than having three 20-30 towers. The density might be the same, but I'd rather walk by building facades and have more retail space than walk by a tower, vacant lot, parking lot, tower . . .

^And every city, no matter how desireable the neighborhood, has vacant lots. To fill every vacant lot in the CWE is unrealistic. Look at those prime lots on Kingshighway. 3 to 5 story buildings would look out of place on such a boulevard. I would prefer to see good urban architecture befitting a high rise neighborhood, especially in a setting where one would expect to see it.

Perhaps you may be half right, as far as streets such as Euclid, West Pine, etc. (but I would say no less than 6 stories), but on Kingshighway or Lindell?

Grover wrote:^ But the point that's been made time and time again is that there are a number of very large vacant lots/surface parking lots in the CWE. The neighborhood would actually be more vibrant if these blocks were to b filled in with 3-5 story buildings rather than having three 20-30 towers. The density might be the same, but I'd rather walk by building facades and have more retail space than walk by a tower, vacant lot, parking lot, tower . . .

There is no reason that the streetfront retail you speak of couldn't be built on the streetlevel facade of a highrise building. We see examples of that all over the place. I think the taller the building, the better ultimate result with regards to vibrancy, tax revenue and overall neighborhood investment.

Interesting...now this discussion is mirroring a similar debate on the Ballpark Village thread.



I say give me density, whether it's horizontal or vertical. Add to the horizontal density of the neighborhood first, and the increased demand for living in a more vibrant area will inevitably tip the scales toward increased vertical density.



I understand the desire to have a few more civic phallic symbols, and I am all for highrise construction downtown, in the CWE, and other areas of the city where it's appropriate (Midtown, Skinker-DeBaliviere, etc.). However, I'm much more interested in filling in the gaps in the urban fabric first.



It'd be nice to see some buildings constructed that were maybe no more than four or five stories tall, yet they could accommodate additional floors on top as demand for highrise living increases. (Supposedly that's what's going to happen at Ballpark Village...and my fingers are crossed for the densest and tallest development possible there as well.)



All of that said, I'm still hopeful that the Lindell Condominiums will be built, and a highrise on this corner (and hopefully, one at Lindell and Kingshighway on Koplar's surface lots) is completely appropriate IMHO.

Marmar wrote:^And every city, no matter how desireable the neighborhood, has vacant lots. To fill every vacant lot in the CWE is unrealistic. Look at those prime lots on Kingshighway. 3 to 5 story buildings would look out of place on such a boulevard. I would prefer to see good urban architecture befitting a high rise neighborhood, especially in a setting where one would expect to see it.

Perhaps you may be half right, as far as streets such as Euclid, West Pine, etc. (but I would say no less than 6 stories), but on Kingshighway or Lindell?

You're certainly right about Kingshighway and Lindell. A nice tower at the corner would be very appropriate and 6-10 stories at other corners/along Kingshighway and Lindell are needed. But along Euclid, West Pine and others three stories should be fine. Some of the nicest buildings in the CWE are no more than three stories. Obviously retail can go in a tower, but a tower and two parking lots don't offer as much retail as three mid-rises. Anyway, I think we really agree for the most part.

IMHO, the 'core' of the CWE is already pretty dense. A couple more signiture towers on Kingshighway or Euclid near Lindell would help aesthetically, but beyond that I wonder how much more traffic the street grid can handle. Specifically, the N-S streets are very narrow, and Euclid and Taylor already reach gridlock at certain hours.



I also think we're at a point where the CWE is self-sustaining -- I'd like to see big projects focus on filling out the commercial/industrial areas between Newstead and Vandeventer on FPP, Laclede, West Pine and Lindell.

ThreeOneFour wrote:
I say give me density, whether it's horizontal or vertical. Add to the horizontal density of the neighborhood first, and the increased demand for living in a more vibrant area will inevitably tip the scales toward increased vertical density.

YESSSSSSSS!!! That's what i've been trying to say...

Ok, for anyone who clearly missed my point (and I SERIOUSLY didn't want this to turn into the same density/height topic going on in bpv), I WAS SPEAKING ONLY ABOUT THE VISUAL SKYLINE ABLE TO BE SEEN. I did not say a thing about density, the neighborhood, surface lots, or anything even close to that actually. IT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE THREE DISTINCT SKYLINES GOING WEST DOWN CENTRAL STL. (downtown, then cwe, then Clayton) ONCE AGAIN, I did not say anything at all about density or the neighborhood, just the opinion that I would love to see the cwe turn into a nice skyline (therefore the 4-5 more 300-500 ft buildings comment).



threeonefour - that's a very nice point regardless of the previous part of my post (in the bold in the previous post.



I fully agree with tysalpha as well. This area is pretty damn dense. IMO it can't get too dense, however, so more density would also be great, i would just love to get the two-for and get density in the form of more tall buildings on surface lots.

The more density, the better, imo. The ugly Mills apartment complex at Maryland and Taylor, I'd be all about tearing that dump down for a 30 + highrise. I think the "streets can handle it"...

My DREAM would be for the success of the CWE to push northwards up Kingshighway. Talk about an area ripe for development. Delmar and Kingshighway should be one of the premier intersections of stl, maybe even on par with Lindell and KH. Tear down all the fast food places and build it up! Time for some good ol' gentrification!

newstl2020 wrote:(and I SERIOUSLY didn't want this to turn into the same density/height topic going on in bpv)

No harm done! I think this is a good basis for discussion, whether it's in the Ballpark Village thread or this one! Basically, we all want the same thing, and there are just different perspectives and perhaps different ways of achieving the common goal of a denser, more urban Saint Louis.



Like shadrach said, I think increased density (vertical AND horizontal) will come hand-in-hand given time.

I think we can form one long central corridor from downtown to the CWE before it's all over. All you've got to do is make it from downtown to downtown west, downtown west to midtown, midtown to the west end. Now, I don't expect something like New York, with crazy heights all the way...but I think it's reasonable to blend it from one end to the other.



But I dont' think you need 80 story buildings to do that. 10-30 is good.

I called Opus to see if I could come across any information about this tower. Apparently the gentleman I need to talk to is gone until Thursday, so hopefully I can get something out of him sometime tommorow afternoon.

But I dont' think you need 80 story buildings to do that. 10-30 is good.

Even 2-3 story contiguous structures like in the loop or down locust would make St. Louis infinitely more pleasant.

This area is pretty damn dense

CWE is definately dense, but in my opinion there is still plenty of poorly used land there. There are plenty of surface parking lots, exclusive residential sections, and other random non street-interactive pockets where nice 2-3 story mixed-use infill could really further enhance the neigbhorhood.

ddd5 wrote:

But I dont' think you need 80 story buildings to do that. 10-30 is good.

Even 2-3 story contiguous structures like in the loop or down locust would make St. Louis infinitely more pleasant.

This area is pretty damn dense

CWE is definately dense, but in my opinion there is still plenty of poorly used land there. There are plenty of surface parking lots, exclusive residential sections, and other random non street-interactive pockets where nice 2-3 story mixed-use infill could really further enhance the neigbhorhood.

What are you saying? That we should get rid of exclusive residential sections so we can have more density and height? We have one of the best collections of private turn of the century residences in the nation and it's because of those private streets.



My NYC friends feel very comfortable in CWE just the way it is. I'm not saying we shouldn't build more, but taking away private residential sections to make way for density and height makes no sense at all and would destroy the character of that whole part of town.

What are you saying? That we should get rid of exclusive residential sections so we can have more density and height? We have one of the best collections of private turn of the century residences in the nation and it's because of those private streets.

No, definately not. I am just pointing out that CWE can improve. It's a nice area now, but shouldn't be treated as perfect.

For instance, some parking lots across the chase, and across from the Parc Frontenac on Kingshighway could be put to better use, in my opinion.

Also, I am all for protecting the residential architecture, and keeping those neighborhoods entirely residential if thats what the residents want. But then again, you can always change the use of a building without tearing it down. And you can do so in a residential neighborhood without threatening the character of that neighborhood.



One more thing: I am not at all for higher buildings. I think 2-3 story buildings with mixed uses and also close together seem to create the most pleasant neighborhoods.



Just some of my ideas based on my experience in the CWE, and other very different kinds of cities. I am not an urban planner, so no expert.

Bastiat said: "A lot of people resent the fact that these streets are private and do not allow just anyone to pass through. These people fail to realize that if it were not for these streets, the residents that held the neighborhood together would have fled to Ladue. The CWE would be no different than the other once nice neighborhoods north of Delmar."



I lived on Waterman for 11 years before moving downtown and my observation is the same as yours. I would add that the BJC building projects over the past 10 years have also greatly cemented the future prosperity of CWE as they have created jobs for people that want to live in the neighborhood. That caused real estate prices to rise and in general created a period of unprecendented restoration and preservation in the surrounding area.

Called again today and the gentleman was out of the office with clients...hopefully those are clients looking for a new 1,000,000 sf tower in downtown. Will call back tommorow.

Well we can all thank the CWE obstructionists for the soon-to-be Heartland Bank branch that will occupy the old American Heart Association building at Lindell & Euclid. Yay! They have successfully defeated the possibility of having a beautiful modern highrise at this strategic corner in one of the city's most up-and-coming neighborhoods! Today's West End Word reports that the obsolete historic district standards have been upheld by the courts and that no highrises shall be built in the CWE historic district.



Well fancy that. We all know that the Heart Assn. building is the best use of that land, so we should all rejoice in this decision. Unfortunately there isn't a link to this victorious story yet, but I hope you all pick up a copy. You will not even believe it. What could have been an inspiring landmark at a highly-visible corner of the CWE will now be a drive-thru bank branch! Mazel Tov to all who helped defeat OPUS's outrageous proposal to add residents, vitality and tax dollars to the neighborhood! How dare they attempt to corrupt this little corner of the world. I can't wait for the bank to open!!!! And of course we can all breathe a sigh of relief now that we know that the charming and historic American Heart Association building will remain right where it is, contributing to the stately aesthetic of Lindell Boulevard. I'm so glad the historic district guidelines have preserved such a worthwhile and significant structure.



I only hope that these vocal residents opposed to highrises in the historic district can now focus their efforts on obtaining a demolition permit for the Park Plaza, which, at 29 stories overlooking Forest Park and Maryland Plaza, is an absolute eyesore. Good luck, and thanks again!

Ah, and how poetic is it that the bank is named "Heartland"?

While I am *EXTREMELY* pissed that this didn't work out, I think we should remember the fact that Opus' Park East Tower and lofts have done extremely well thusfar. I look forward to hearing a new proposal. Loved this one and it will sting for a while, but I don't think Opus will throw in the hat. There's still much profit to be had.

JivecitySTL wrote: Today's West End Word reports that the obsolete historic district standards have been upheld by the courts and that no highrises shall be built in the CWE historic district.

I'm confused. The Preservation Board granted a preliminary variance to this project. Don't the standards empower the Board to grant variances on a case by case basis?