This was in Van Der Werf's column this morning:



Pastrami and sauerkraut and an insult.



That's been the bill of fare for 55 years at Jack Carl's 2 Cents Plain, a New York-style delicatessen in downtown St. Louis. But not for long.



Carl is quick to tell you he's the "only" deli downtown. "A lot of people have sandwich shops, and call them delis. They see a knish, and they're afraid of it. They don't know what it is."



And pardon the Chamber of Commerce. Carl calls his neighborhood "done-town," not downtown. "They keep kicking out the businessman to put up lofts. Now, there's no one around to buy lunch."



At 76, Carl, never the retiring type, is. His deli, 1114 Olive Street, will close at the end of this month. Then he plans to sell off his bottle collection, photos of Frank Sinatra and other entertainers, beer signs and all the other memorabilia that crowds his restaurant and the basement.



A lawyer bought the two-story building and plans to convert it into an office, said Jeff Brady, a real estate broker at Keller Williams.



Carl said he tried to sell his restaurant, "but no one was interested."



He began the deli 55 years ago in Clayton, then moved to Gaslight Square for 10 years. He has been downtown for 40 years - the first 20 years on 11th Street. Over the last two decades, he has been running the counter at his present location, where he has been known to dismiss a customer who doesn't want his soup: "To hell with you, cheapskate."

DeBaliviere wrote:My thoughts:



- I don't mind losing a business owned by someone who is going to talk sh!t about downtown. If he can't see that downtown is turning around, he's blind. Many of the buildings that are being converted to lofts were mostly vacant - it's not like Met Square is being emptied out.



- His food wasn't anything special anyway.



- Perhaps if he would have marketed his business, he could have taken advantage of the thousands of office workers within a short walk of his deli. SBC is right behind him!



- Or maybe, most downtown workers know about his deli, but just prefer not to be insulted when they buy their lunches.

I agree. He's got it all backwards, but of course it can't be his fault!!



There is actually more people downtown than before. Because of that there are also more places to eat. And because of that, people are probably choosing the places where they aren't belittled...



You're soup has to be damn good to get away with dismissing your customers. Obviously, he's no soup nazi.

I have no comment on his business, since I don't remember it. I used to work in that neighborhood and still don't remember him. The lofts are bringing more customers that are around 24 hours. Don't see how they could hurt a good deli business??? There is a market down there for a well stocked, well run deli. And the number of sandwiches sold to downtown officer workers during lunch must be staggering.



PS: His grumpiness appeals to me. That wouldn't stop me if he had good food.

DeBaliviere wrote:maybe, most downtown workers know about his deli, but just prefer not to be insulted when they buy their lunches.

Expat wrote:His grumpiness appeals to me. That wouldn't stop me if he had good food.

Expat, the food wasn't anything special and a little over priced, but probably the last place you are going to get chopped liver, pastrami, knishes and kosher hot dogs in downtown St. Louis.



You are right... his grumpiness was part of the atmosphere. There is a place in Chicago called Ed Debevics that plays on that same atmosphere, however they let you know they are just an act... Jack Carl was the real deal.

Yes, I know Ed Debevics . But, I really appreciate the real deal. Makes me wonder if all of this is his grumpy way of saying that it is time to retire after 55 years.

I like Ed Debevic's. Been there twice. This guy just doesn't sound appealing to me though. Would be cool to have a place like Ed Debevic's in St. Louis. Definately a tourist attraction.

I hate to say it but I believe Carl has a good point and as a business owner he should know the reality. Although downtown has made great strides the fact is that the loss of workers in the central core has continued to decline. The only reason the employment numbers have appeared steady is because the downtown boundaries have been moved outward. Whenever I go downtown, unless there is some sort of special event or convention, it is readily apparent that the amount of pedestrian traffic has greatly diminished. One loft building of 100 units will never replace the revenue from the same building filled with office or factory workers. I believe this is one reason you don't see larger chains like McDonalds, The Gap, Boarders or Schnucks because the traffic count just isn't there yet. City officials need to once again focus on inventive ways to bring more companies downtown, in my opinion this includes building new office space, encouraging entrepreneurship, investing in public transportation and reducing or better yet eliminating the payroll tax.

Southcitygent has a point about taxes. Coming from a state that has no state income tax, no payroll tax, and only a 6% sales tax, it's a question that's been discussed in this household. My husband wants to know what taxes are going to be like when we move back. Taxes are a significant factor when individuals and businesses look at relocating.

How does Florida do without a state income tax? Well if you're a tourist booking a hotel room.......

The problem with getting rid of the payroll tax is that it pays a hefty amount of the City budget(around 34% IIRC). Getting rid of it would only mean raising taxes elsewhere.

Why not get a couple public/private entities (Downtown St. Louis Partnership, for one?) to invest in a year-long or two year-long city earnings tax holiday? ...A "moratorium" if you will, during which the City announces it will no longer collect on the tax for the specified time period.



The investors most likely could not cover the enormous revenue loss for the year or two period, but, if a windfall of businesses moved into the city during the moratorium (which would be a speculative move, anticipating that other businesses would do so as well in order to rid of the earnings tax), then the City Earnings Tax could be removed and the investors could be repaid through expected property tax returns!



Of course, this assumes that there is a massive interest in local businesses to move downtown, and that the only thing holding them back is the Earnings Tax.



Ah well, it's probably not feasible anyway. Just a thought.

Here's a gem from McClellan's column:

"The city does everything backwards. They kicked out all the businessmen, the jewelers and so forth, and made these buildings into lofts. Where are all these people? I've met three people who live downtown," he said.



At least he called it downtown. Usually, he calls it done-town. He is not a civic booster. After the Final Four came to town, he put a sign in his window: Final Four Come No More. "I had a total of four people come here from the Final Four. That's all," he said.

I don't think that many "businessmen" have been "kicked out" of downtown. Sure, some companies, retailers, etc. have had to relocate as buildings are converted to lofts, but most have left on their own.

Mr. Carl's place of business is always dead, yet all of the lunch eateries around him are always packed. There is an obvious reason why, and his opinion of the state of downtown is not valid or true. He's just an old man who is oblivious to what is going on around him.



I say good riddance, personally.

Building the Convention center/stadium, convention hotel, St. Louis Centre and the Gateway Mall dislocated many businesses. Also the construction of the Metrolink stations downtown caused several retail establishments to close.

Looks like the bulding is now for sale at $315,000



http://realestate.stltoday.com/RealEsta ... 182-533895

Last night on Fox 2 they interviewed 2 guys who are converting 2 Cents Plain into a live music venue. They said they plan to open in September. Naturally they had to dig up Jack Carl who said he wishes them luck but indicated that they will not make it.



Jack also reiterated that the reason he closed was that the lofts downtown drove away his customer base… ok who were his customers? Was there a colony of pastrami loving hobbits that use to live in the nooks of the Bogan, Meridian and Lucas loft buildings that were forced out?

I don't know how many of you remember the downtown of the 80's, but his attitude sounds par for the course to me. And I'm sorry, but his corned beef sandwich k----d ass. One time he made me eat one after a dentist appointment and he told my mom that if "he's got 6 months until the next one, why not?" Do you think some skinny waiter in all black at some restaurant named after its address is going to be that clever?

captainjackass wrote:I don't know how many of you remember the downtown of the 80's, but his attitude sounds par for the course to me. And I'm sorry, but his corned beef sandwich k----d ass. One time he made me eat one after a dentist appointment and he told my mom that if "he's got 6 months until the next one, why not?" Do you think some skinny waiter in all black at some restaurant named after its address is going to be that clever?

At 9 bucks a shot in the early 90’s it should be damn good, that is what a decent dinner cost at that time. I am not sure what he did with the profits but I can verify it did not go into routine upkeep.

captainjackass wrote:I don't know how many of you remember the downtown of the 80's, but his attitude sounds par for the course to me. And I'm sorry, but his corned beef sandwich k----d ass. One time he made me eat one after a dentist appointment and he told my mom that if "he's got 6 months until the next one, why not?" Do you think some skinny waiter in all black at some restaurant named after its address is going to be that clever?

I don't understand, are you agreeing with him? Look, I know he was a cranky old man but what the hell is he thinking? Most of the building that have been/will be converted to lofts have been sitting vacant.



I think the closing of the Union Pacific Railroad Building was the last straw. Didn't they have like 1000 to 1300 employees in that building? Between that and SBC/AT&T shipping tons of jobs to Texas over the last decade, that part of downtown has lost a lot of jobs.

Sporadic upkeep costs money, too. You went there for dinner?

Beer City wrote:Last night on Fox 2 they interviewed 2 guys who are converting 2 Cents Plain into a live music venue.

2 Cents Plain on Fox2



For your convenience.



John Auble must be on the new music scene beat, on the Old Rock House:



Old Rock House on Fox2





It's great that downtown is getting more live music venues. Now if only the Orphuem would be properly run. . . . .



EDIT: can someone pm my dumb a** and tell me how to post "link" instead of an uber-long url? EDIT: Thanks, RBB and Matt for helping me.

It's the kids from Jumbling Towers opening up 2 Cents Plain as a music venue.