urbanSTL

Adam N Radical wrote:

jlblues wrote:The majority of the country is still unreachable by paved road.

Have you ever driven around some of the counties in the foothills of the Ozarks?

jlblues wrote:And don't be fooled by the hundreds of shiny, new highrises in the cities; there are still several ... hundred people in (Missouri/Illinois) that don't have electricity or potable water.

But every country has their Venice, Sauget, and East St. Louis.

Ok, I can't claim that we are not better off then China. But there are points to be made with how I misquoted you.

Are there? Good...



Umm, are you going to make them...or...is someone else?

Any word on when decisions will be made regarding approval of these proposals? Is it immediately after Obama takes office?

Are all these proposals just part of one bill? Does this mean that when it passes St. Louis and pretty much ever other major urban area will be getting rebuilt next few years? I just hope that the North-South extension doesn't get thrown out some how, because if this passes we may witness a nationwide urban renaissance.

goat314

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:16 am Post subject:



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Are all these proposals just part of one bill? Does this mean that when it passes St. Louis and pretty much ever other major urban area will be getting rebuilt next few years? I just hope that the North-South extension doesn't get thrown out some how, because if this passes we may witness a nationwide urban renaissance.

The amount of projects on the list is substantial and it amounts to a total of 73 billion. Kinda seems small compared to the 700 billion dollar bailout and the 165 billion given just to AIG. Amazing to think what 700 billion could have done for cities around the country. I hope they all pass, if gonna be giving money out blind to compainies how about giving some to the cities and the people.

ntbpo wrote:

goat314

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:16 am Post subject:



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Are all these proposals just part of one bill? Does this mean that when it passes St. Louis and pretty much ever other major urban area will be getting rebuilt next few years? I just hope that the North-South extension doesn't get thrown out some how, because if this passes we may witness a nationwide urban renaissance.

The amount of projects on the list is substantial and it amounts to a total of 73 billion. Kinda seems small compared to the 700 billion dollar bailout and the 165 billion given just to AIG. Amazing to think what 700 billion could have done for cities around the country. I hope they all pass, if gonna be giving money out blind to compainies how about giving some to the cities and the people.

I'm sure it will be over 100 billion by the time they get all the request in, but your are right. It does seem like a drop in the bucket compared to what we give these corporations. I'd spend a billion dollars on infrastructure over wall street anyday!

jlblues wrote:Are there? Good...

Umm, are you going to make them...or...is someone else?

After re-reading what I had posted, I was hoping that it might come from someone else. I'm not sure what I was trying to say. So I guess I was wrong and there were no points to be made afterall. Sorry.

i'm too tired to be more verbose, but i wanted to get this out there. in the 1800's we made large investments in railroad, in the 50's it was the interstate... In this information age, it is now time to invest in our electric networks and make the internet more accessible for our citizens and first responders. Constituencies have tried with Wifi Metropolitan Area Networks but the solution is technically not feasible and overly expensive to implement. A new technology is coming soon that can make such a dream reality. And guess what, it should be less costly to implement than wifi.



I'm talking about White Spaces:

- Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Spaces_Coalition.

- Layperson link: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2334764,00.asp



While primarily useful for rural areas (because they may not have access to internet connections and there is more consecutive available white space which enables a stronger signal), it can be effective in cities. New York has begun a discussion now: http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/te ... 04/19/2774



It will be about 18 months until devices are out that support the technology, but there's a fair amount of politics involved so the discussions must start now. They should start in the city of St. Louis if they haven't yet...

That would be great if the money went to the cities rather than the state.

^Well, in most cases, I'd think it still ultimately has to go to the state. Most cities and quasi-governmental agencies in cities aren't equipped to manage large public works projects.

St. Louis is ready to ask for economic stimulus from Obama.



http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/15/econom ... peed=15000





$800M for Metrolink expansion would be great! I wonder if that would cover the Northside/Southside line and the Westport line.



Actually, I would prefer Metrolink ran along Olive to Creve Coeur instead of going to Westport becuse it would pass more retail and several large employers if Metrolink ran along Olive. I think there are more opportunities for TOD along Olive.

$900 million actually for Metrolink. That would likely be hard to get just because we still need all of the engineering and final planning completed before any construction can start. But it is worth asking for.



I really am glad to see the city so on top of things. If you ask for enough, you are bound to get something. I also find it interesting that St. Louis has the highest number of estimated new jobs at 60,000. I wonder how they arrived at that estimation.

I e-mail Mayor Slay's office today and they said this regarding Metrolink expansion in the city:



The failure of Prop M should have no impact on the City's ability to get

funding to build and equip the system. There have been a variety of efforts

with the state to get state support for Metro, and the dialogue continues.





So if this Main Street Stimulus Plan passes there is a good chance we will see Metrolink expanded in the city (how much remains to be seen). There may be some good that comes out of the city of St. Louis being a separate entity from the shortsighted County (The city wont be held accountable for the county's actions).

Also from the last e-mail Mayor Slay said he was confident that if funding is provided, all of the projects listed would get off the ground (including N-S Metro).

I'm sure with the right funding the engineering process could be sped up considerably. Especially if those transit planners are getting paid top dollar to work their ass off!

[/i]

^Except any extension is far from "ready-to-go." St. Clair County extension to Mid-America comes closest, with Metro South to Butler Hill a far second, but neither of these are that practical nor popular. The Northside-Southside total ($900 M) listed on the City's wish-list was the construction estimate from a conceptual engineering study. It's a little hard to build something without final plans, which themselves cost quite a bit.

I think the $900 for metrolink expansion is a poor request on behalf of the city. First, it is not by any stretch of the imagination a "shovel in the ground" ready project. It will be a easy political decision for the Obama admin or any congressman not to take it up. Second, it will take a substantial price to operate another metrolink line anyway you look at. Third, by its own accord and studies to date the Metrolink North/southside has very poor ridership projections in areas, especially on the north side, with minimal density in housing stock and employment outside of downtown. Rebuild streets and sewers, get police on the ground, rebuild schools first and then start talking about this.



The city can put a number of projects together from a new 22nd street interchange, replace I-70 trench, rebuild North Tucker Blvd, to streetcar lines would be much more beneficial to the whole of the city, cost effective and easy to start. I think Metrolink itself has much more realistic requests, politically and financially - station improvements, bus replacement, paint Eads bridge, Etc.

MattnSTL wrote:I also find it interesting that St. Louis has the highest number of estimated new jobs at 60,000. I wonder how they arrived at that estimation.

Like most such estimates, they pulled it out of a warm, dark, malodorous place.



Regarding this infrastructure/stimulus package: Has anyone stopped to query from where all of these workers are going to come? It isn't 1930 or 1950, when you could just pass out a bunch of shovels and tell people to start digging. These days you have to have a minimum level of skill and training just to be allowed on a construction site. OSHA demands it.



Do we really imagine that thousands of out-of-work auto and miscellaneous manufacturing workers are going to take a 50% (at least) pay and benefit cut to start out on the bottom rung in the construction industry? The only way this happens is if all of the various unions get together and consolidate their pool of workers/maintaining seniority and status across unionized industries. And if you actually believe that'll happen...



And think about all of the engineering, environmental impact, inspection, permit approval, etc. work that'll need to be done. The system doesn't have enough of such people to tackle even half of these projects at the same time, so from where are all these people going to come, are we going to import them?

I don't know the answer to this so I'm askin:



everyone keeps saying that the N-S metro line isn't "ready to go." But how hard would it be to simply pick up the planning where its at and get going on it. I can't imagine it would take THAT long to plan and design the thing. I would guess that most of the delay on these types of projects comes from the lack of funding. If the funding was there - why couldn't they plan and design the thing in say .. 6 months. I mean this isn't a moon landing we're talking about. And I can't believe that NO planning has been done.

holy smokes...how many threads can we have on one topic?

just enough so that jlblues has his own to badmouth it as a Democratic boondoggle

markofucity wrote:everyone keeps saying that the N-S metro line isn't "ready to go." But how hard would it be to simply pick up the planning where its at and get going on it. I can't imagine it would take THAT long to plan and design the thing. I would guess that most of the delay on these types of projects comes from the lack of funding. If the funding was there - why couldn't they plan and design the thing in say .. 6 months. I mean this isn't a moon landing we're talking about. And I can't believe that NO planning has been done.

The biggest delay is all of the bureaucracy, i.e. the various stages of impact studies and approvals, many of which need to be in place before much of the design work can even begin.



They can bypass some of that in a high-profile case like the I-35 bridge reconstruction, but if you tried to do that wholesale for $1 trillion in federal infrastructure spending, the chaos, waste, ineptitude, and malfeasance that would ensue would be unlike anything we've ever seen in this country, and that's saying alot.

I'm proud of the list Mayor Slay and his officials put together. Even if we get half the things on the list, St. Louis would look great. If we don't get the Metrolink extension, I feel confident about the trolley project....which will definitely spur millions in development and solidify The Loop as a top tourist destination.

Certainly agree that their definitely good projects on Slay's list. I do have some hope for Obama's plan in that they have stated it as a 2-year plan, which shows some understanding on their part. They could easily stretch the infrastructure part of the stimulus plan to 4-year plan if it allows for more and better projects. I tend to believe that everybody agrees with the political, financially and work force reality (from planners to engineers to permittee's and finally the operators) you could not not get everything listed. Nor could you perform all the work at the same time.