"We are not going to fix America's crumbling infrastructure with $30 billion for highway and bridges" - Pete Rahn (MODOT)
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"We must build more new 4 lane roads to small towns and build new gigantic bridges over the Missouri River"
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Grover, your post might be worth a thread discussion all by itself. We will all be paying more in sewer and storm water bills as MSD starts its capital program to address EPA Compliance. One issue being that the old combined storm/sewer that takes in tremendous inflow during heavy rains that result in strains on the system as well as raw sewage discharge. However, It would be nice to have some more stimulus funds to deal directly with our aging infrastructure
MSD is one organization that incorporates the city and the county. I think it is beneficial that those costs will be spread among the city and county. In other words, those who opt for west county will share in the capital cost. In time, it will be reversed as west county infrastructure ages. In the end, their is a real cost for the convenience or desire for space as well as fact that the city and county's infrastructure is intertwined and connected.
MSD is one organization that incorporates the city and the county. I think it is beneficial that those costs will be spread among the city and county. In other words, those who opt for west county will share in the capital cost. In time, it will be reversed as west county infrastructure ages. In the end, their is a real cost for the convenience or desire for space as well as fact that the city and county's infrastructure is intertwined and connected.
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Dredger wrote:In time, it will be reversed as west county infrastructure ages.
This should be the point that everyone understands. The inner suburbs are already suffering badly and aging infrastructure will hit Manchester, Ballwin and other like places in the coming decades. And when it does, the residents aren't going to want to pay it! This is why while I feel the city may find itself in a better situation in the near future relative to aging suburbs with homes that often will not last 100 years, we should never say "screw you" to the Ballwins - we need to address these issues as a region.
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are the final details of the stimulus package out? If so - whats in it for St. Louis? Can we tell. From what I gather (largely from the radio) - the plan seems to leave it up to the states to divvy up. Which makes me nervous - cause I know they'll just spend it on roads to nowhere.
I believe they kept Transportation stimulus at roughly 46 to 47 billion. About 28 to 30 billion will go to state DOT's through existing funding formulas. The rest is Transit, Amtrak, etc. I belive Rahn stated something around $750 million would be for MoDOT.
I believe Transit funding will go through the Feds. I believe you will see a couple of smaller local projects get funding - Maybe Eads bridge painting and Grand Ave metrolink station improvements. The state might buy a few buses. But, don't expect a $900 million gift for North/South when competing against other cities such as New York/LA/Chicago. The Feds don't support operations so don't expect reinstatement of service cuts
I believe Transit funding will go through the Feds. I believe you will see a couple of smaller local projects get funding - Maybe Eads bridge painting and Grand Ave metrolink station improvements. The state might buy a few buses. But, don't expect a $900 million gift for North/South when competing against other cities such as New York/LA/Chicago. The Feds don't support operations so don't expect reinstatement of service cuts
Grover wrote:This should be the point that everyone understands. The inner suburbs are already suffering badly and aging infrastructure will hit Manchester, Ballwin and other like places in the coming decades. And when it does, the residents aren't going to want to pay it! This is why while I feel the city may find itself in a better situation in the near future relative to aging suburbs with homes that often will not last 100 years, we should never say "screw you" to the Ballwins - we need to address these issues as a region.
This is key, and something that most people from the suburbs just don't get. Many move to these places for brand new houses, shiny new businesses, etc. They don't realize that in 20 years the places they live will look exactly like the inner suburbs.
The worst part is that the sewer, power, road, etc. expenses will be far, far higher in the suburbs, as it takes more units of each to provision these basic services to suburban homes. In the long run, we're setting ourselves up for massive failure, but no one takes that into consideration. It's all about now.
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^ And the problem is that on an individual basis this makes sense. My colleagues living in Ballwin now will not be living there when it becomes prohibitively expensive and infrastructure needs to be replaced. Dare I say that this leaves it to government to direct smart growth. Or perhaps a fund should be set up and fed by local property taxes so that the millions of dollars needed to maintain suburban development is there when it's needed - I don't think this will happen, but the solution is to have people pay for their lifestyle choice.
Mistaken on my earlier numbers. Engineering News Record reporting 49.6 billion for transportation as per the agreement between House and Senagte versions. An increase. However, they didn't give the breakdown between highways and transit
http://enr.construction.com/business_ma ... eached.asp
http://enr.construction.com/business_ma ... eached.asp
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Dredger wrote:Mistaken on my earlier numbers. Engineering News Record reporting 49.6 billion for transportation as per the agreement between House and Senagte versions. An increase. However, they didn't give the breakdown between highways and transit
http://enr.construction.com/business_ma ... eached.asp
Here's the breakdown, nationally (per AMPO).
$27.5 billion in the highway and bridge formula funds
$1.5 billion in competitive grant program for surface transportation
$8.4 billion in transit (below the $12 billion from the House version)
$850 million for AMTRAK
$450 million for AMTRAK security upgrades to be managed by DHS
$8 billion for High Speed Rail
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uggh ... I'm so unimpressed by the stimulus plan. I was hoping they would build true "economic engine" projects. Investments into things like cortex, research for new industries, new rail transit etc - we're just going to get patches on the roads we already have. That will create temporary jobs yes - but will it create new long term jobs. I doubt it.
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^With all due respect...I think there's more to it than "just ... patches on the roads we already have". I'm sure you realize there's a little more to the bill than merely patching roads but anyway...
Here are some the highlights of the bill that will both create long term jobs and save money. It may be cliche but, "a penny saved is a penny earned." So the federal gov't saving money with energy efficient buildings and vehicles helps out the taxpayers immensely. Every dollar saved is another dollar than can go back into the economy in some form resulting in the eventual purchase of some good or service, which of course supports business.
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/1 ... 66493.html
Is the stimulus bill perfect? Certainly not, but it has some great features and will hopefully help out the situation. And hopefully we find some of the money coming into the metro area. Unfortunately it may be up to the state to decide how much, which is definitely worrisome.
Here are some the highlights of the bill that will both create long term jobs and save money. It may be cliche but, "a penny saved is a penny earned." So the federal gov't saving money with energy efficient buildings and vehicles helps out the taxpayers immensely. Every dollar saved is another dollar than can go back into the economy in some form resulting in the eventual purchase of some good or service, which of course supports business.
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/1 ... 66493.html
$20 billion in tax incentives to spur the use of renewable energy over the next 10 years.
$3 billion for the National Science Foundation. This stems from an Obama campaign promise to not leave science neglected. The money will provide for "basic research in fundamental science and engineering -- which spurs discovery and innovation."
$16.4 for transit projects and high-speed rail: this not as much as mass-transit advocates wanted (and the total includes grants to states). But it's an important step forward on this front.
$6 billion "for local clean and drinking water infrastructure improvements." Not only will this promote better health, it will, House Democrats say, create hundreds of thousands of jobs.
$4.5 billion to repair federal buildings and increase energy efficiency. Think short-term jobs and long-term energy cost savings.
$2 billion in "grant funding for the manufacturing of advanced batteries systems and components and vehicle batteries that are produced in the United States." This could help the U.S. regain supremacy in the car wars.
$11 billion for "smart-grid related activities, including work to modernize the electric grid."
Is the stimulus bill perfect? Certainly not, but it has some great features and will hopefully help out the situation. And hopefully we find some of the money coming into the metro area. Unfortunately it may be up to the state to decide how much, which is definitely worrisome.
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Transit - $104 million.
- Urban Areas: St. Joseph, Kansas City, Joplin, Springfield, Columbia, Jefferson City and St. Louis - These urban transit agencies receive development funds directly from Federal Transit Administration - they do not flow through MoDOT. Cost: $81 million.
that makes me happy. now it says at the bottom of this article that st louis gets 24 million in opperating assistance while kc gets something like 4 million. it says 104 million at the top of the quote, then it says 81 million at the end of the quote, which one is it?
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^dude, add it all up 
Transit - $104 million.
- Urban Areas: St. Joseph, Kansas City, Joplin, Springfield, Columbia, Jefferson City and St. Louis - These urban transit agencies receive development funds directly from Federal Transit Administration - they do not flow through MoDOT. Cost: $81 million.
- Statewide, Rural Transit Providers - Purchase 350 rural transit vehicles to replace existing vehicles that have exceeded useful life. Cost: $15 million.
- Mississippi County, East Prairie - Construct transit facility for Mississippi County Transit. Cost: $625,000.
- Webster County, Marshfield - Construct bus garage for City of Marshfield. Cost: $75,000.
- Ray County, Richmond - Facility improvements for Ray County Transit. Cost: $30,000.
- Butler County, Poplar Bluff - Construct bus stop shelters and install bus stop signs for fixed route service in Poplar Bluff for SMTS. Cost: $110,000.
- Shelby County, Shelbina - Construct transit administration and maintenance facility in Shelbina for OATS, Inc. Cost: $2.65 million.
- Butler County, Poplar Bluff - Construct transit administration facility in Poplar Bluff for SMTS. Cost: $1.2 million.
- Cass County, Harrisonville - Construct transit administration and maintenance facility in Harrisonville for OATS Inc. Cost: $2.8 million.
- Stoddard County, Dexter - Construct transit administration facility in Dexter for Stoddard County Transit, Inc. Cost: $500,000.
I think the State is starting to realize the value of the rail service between KC & St. Louis. Their was two Passenger rail enhancement projects, 22 million and 5.1 million respectively listed in the article. Maybe with a continued push for Springfield service will happen with Obama/Nixon admin.
The Kirk/Webster cross over is an interesting development. The area has two two-track mainlines running into the city/downtown. Union Pacific line has a lot more freight frequency then BNSF. However, a crossover might allow redirection of freight trains while freeing up capacity for passenger trains. I'm thinking of increased inter city rail service as well as future commuter line - Union Pacific line runs through the heart of Maplewood, Webster Groves and Kirkwood as many of us have probably waited at the crossing gate for a coal train.
Now if they would take some that Amtrak security set aside funds ($450 million to be managed through DHS) and use it to buy/upgrade rail stock instead. It would be nice to increase service frequency for KC by adding another trainset. Instead, DHS will probably hire some more blue shirt TSA guys to walk around in Penn Station or Union Station in Washington, DC
The Kirk/Webster cross over is an interesting development. The area has two two-track mainlines running into the city/downtown. Union Pacific line has a lot more freight frequency then BNSF. However, a crossover might allow redirection of freight trains while freeing up capacity for passenger trains. I'm thinking of increased inter city rail service as well as future commuter line - Union Pacific line runs through the heart of Maplewood, Webster Groves and Kirkwood as many of us have probably waited at the crossing gate for a coal train.
Now if they would take some that Amtrak security set aside funds ($450 million to be managed through DHS) and use it to buy/upgrade rail stock instead. It would be nice to increase service frequency for KC by adding another trainset. Instead, DHS will probably hire some more blue shirt TSA guys to walk around in Penn Station or Union Station in Washington, DC
I'm not sure that universal crossover means what you think it means. It it merely a simple crossover between the two parrallel tracks on the Union Pacific line near Old Webster. There is a " / " crossover there now, but UP wants to make it a " X " crossover. This project has nothing to do with the parrallel BNSF line. See page 22 of this MoDOT report for details.Dredger wrote:The Kirk/Webster cross over is an interesting development. The area has two two-track mainlines running into the city/downtown. Union Pacific line has a lot more freight frequency then BNSF. However, a crossover might allow redirection of freight trains while freeing up capacity for passenger trains. I'm thinking of increased inter city rail service as well as future commuter line - Union Pacific line runs through the heart of Maplewood, Webster Groves and Kirkwood as many of us have probably waited at the crossing gate for a coal train.
Mill204, thanks for a better understanding of what a double cross over is.
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The P-D has a listing of possible stimulus projects in the st louis area, too many for me to paste a list.
Link to Story
Link to Story
Delmar Loop Trolley is a plus. I also saw something about a public transportation educational brochure mail out for the metro area. It probably would have helped more before Nov. 4, but maybe we can sway some sensible people that metro (public buses and trains) is about the future sustainability of the region.
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It would be great to see all of these on a map - if anyone finds such a thing please post!
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Estimates up to 10 Billion now for MO, 23 Billion for Chicago.
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... a=from_rss
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... a=from_rss