It reflects the fact that white flight was so complete that much of the metro fundamentally doesn't understand Cities or their benefits anymore, and as a result the metro is a mass of redundant, car dependent suburbs and exurbs.It reflects on the Southern impact culturally.
And I don't think it's a uniquely Southern trait at all considering Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc all like to call themselves a "big small towns" as well, and they most certainly are not Southern.onecity wrote:It reflects the fact that white flight was so complete that much of the metro fundamentally doesn't understand Cities or their benefits anymore, and as a result the metro is a mass of redundant, car dependent suburbs and exurbs.It reflects on the Southern impact culturally.
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I consider big small town a compliment. I think it just means it has the amenities of a larger city but the closeness, convenience, and affordability of a smaller city. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Wow, that is quite a leap.onecity wrote:It reflects the fact that white flight was so complete that much of the metro fundamentally doesn't understand Cities or their benefits anymore, and as a result the metro is a mass of redundant, car dependent suburbs and exurbs.It reflects on the Southern impact culturally.
White flight only happens in Southern cities? It happened in every American city. From progressive, liberal cities to more conservative ones.onecity wrote:It reflects the fact that white flight was so complete that much of the metro fundamentally doesn't understand Cities or their benefits anymore, and as a result the metro is a mass of redundant, car dependent suburbs and exurbs.It reflects on the Southern impact culturally.
All three of those metro areas are smaller than Saint Louis. The phrase for St Louis is reflective of our culture, not size. St Louis would have the same or very similar culture at 4, 5, 6 million. It's rooted in our demographics, history, location, etc. We are the only big city that can be in all four cardinal directions of the country and reflect all four directions. St Louis is a blend of North (our industry, economy), South (much of the people coming from the Virginia/Tenn/Kentucky migrations), West with being first across the Mississippi and a launch point for expansion, and East being the old city with a long history something Kansas City or Denver cannot claim.stlgasm wrote:And I don't think it's a uniquely Southern trait at all considering Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc all like to call themselves a "big small towns" as well, and they most certainly are not Southern.onecity wrote:It reflects the fact that white flight was so complete that much of the metro fundamentally doesn't understand Cities or their benefits anymore, and as a result the metro is a mass of redundant, car dependent suburbs and exurbs.It reflects on the Southern impact culturally.
I know many people hate it, but St Louis and Missouri has been impacted and continues to be by Southern culture and history. Just as we are impacted by other regions and cultures.
When my nephew from Orlando visited, he asked while driving around "Is this a small city?"
I was surprised. St. Louis has a larger metro pop in a more condensed area.
But from his teenage perspective—Orlando is a massive grid of malls, strip malls, office parks and condos. In 'St. Louis,' we were driving, literally winding through, Maplewood, Richmond Hts, Clayton, Webster, Old Orchard, South City, West End etc. Hmmm, a bunch of small towns.
So St. Louis metro grew to encompass these little villages with main streets that, in 1900, were far away from the City Center. So it often feels like your going form one small town to another. It doesn't have the 'modern' city feel—Phoenix, Orange County, Orlando, Dallas—of a giant grid and lots of stuff.
So maybe we're not a "big small town," but we are definitely a "big collection of small towns."
I was surprised. St. Louis has a larger metro pop in a more condensed area.
But from his teenage perspective—Orlando is a massive grid of malls, strip malls, office parks and condos. In 'St. Louis,' we were driving, literally winding through, Maplewood, Richmond Hts, Clayton, Webster, Old Orchard, South City, West End etc. Hmmm, a bunch of small towns.
So St. Louis metro grew to encompass these little villages with main streets that, in 1900, were far away from the City Center. So it often feels like your going form one small town to another. It doesn't have the 'modern' city feel—Phoenix, Orange County, Orlando, Dallas—of a giant grid and lots of stuff.
So maybe we're not a "big small town," but we are definitely a "big collection of small towns."
Not really where I was going with this. My point was not that southernness that makes it feel like a bunch of small towns. It's that if white flight hadn't occurred to such a ridiculous, shameful, and excessive degree, STL would a) be a lot more compact and b) feel a lot more uptown. Due to the excessive sprawl, aside from the city core and the rebirth the city itself seems to be experiencing - the metro is a bunch of disjointed burghs that are sprawly enough to be sleepier (from lack of foot traffic due to car dependency) than their populations would imply.White flight only happens in Southern cities? It happened in every American city. From progressive, liberal cities to more conservative ones
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As a true Gen Y suburbanite(Wildwood), I can truthfully say that many people use this phrase constantly in the burbs. I have been constantly going to the city and learning about it locally and I don't see it as a 'big small city' but many people out here only here are used to 'neighborhoods'. We all live in SEPARATE subdivisions with pretty much homogeneous names(x=Name Of Something In Nature+Town/Village/View/Court). So we are naturally used to 'neighborhoods'. But when we venture into the city, we see SEPARATED Dogtown,U-City,Tower Grove,Midtown,Maplewood,The Grove and naturally we see St.Louis as a 'big small town.'
Questions or Comments?
Questions or Comments?
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I completely agree with STLgasm. The "small town" characterization is annoying.
But there are a couple of ways in which it applies, in my opinion. One is the attitude of many of our civic leaders in the city and region. There is an appalling lack of vision among many of the people that hold leadership positions in many of the governmental entities across our region. I could elaborate if necessary, but I could probably go on for days about the decision making and attitudes of many people in local and regional government and why it irritates me...and it irritates me even more the more that I talk about it!
I'd also add that local media perpetuate the small town perception as well. I don't mind the high school question. I can't really be offended by it if I hardly ever hear about it. But the media play it up "the question" a bit too much in my opinion. If someone is a fairly recent graduate of a local school and they hit the big time, good for them. But I don't particularly care if John Q. Bornwell IV graduated from Country Day School in 1964, and I see that frequently in news stories. Speaking of high schools, the high school sports coverage on local news is also a bit overdone, not unlike what you'd see on a TV station from Cape Girardeau or Decatur. The Post-Dispatch is another example, as they generally put stupid local fluff stories above the fold on Page 1 like a small town paper and bury the important stuff between the ads for hearing aids and lasik surgery. Finally, when I see clips from local news from the 1970s and 1980s when I grew up, I notice that there was much more of a focus on the urban core then. Now, as soon as the anchors finish covering the daily homicides, they start talking about Sparta, Warrenton, etc. ad nauseum.
I'm pretty sure there are much more interesting things to cover than high school kids cutting through a cornfield in Red Bud, but not when the news comes first, it never stops, and it's coverage you can count on!
Other than these things, I don't get a small town vibe at all. We need to own our distinction as a major and important city in my opinion!
But there are a couple of ways in which it applies, in my opinion. One is the attitude of many of our civic leaders in the city and region. There is an appalling lack of vision among many of the people that hold leadership positions in many of the governmental entities across our region. I could elaborate if necessary, but I could probably go on for days about the decision making and attitudes of many people in local and regional government and why it irritates me...and it irritates me even more the more that I talk about it!
I'd also add that local media perpetuate the small town perception as well. I don't mind the high school question. I can't really be offended by it if I hardly ever hear about it. But the media play it up "the question" a bit too much in my opinion. If someone is a fairly recent graduate of a local school and they hit the big time, good for them. But I don't particularly care if John Q. Bornwell IV graduated from Country Day School in 1964, and I see that frequently in news stories. Speaking of high schools, the high school sports coverage on local news is also a bit overdone, not unlike what you'd see on a TV station from Cape Girardeau or Decatur. The Post-Dispatch is another example, as they generally put stupid local fluff stories above the fold on Page 1 like a small town paper and bury the important stuff between the ads for hearing aids and lasik surgery. Finally, when I see clips from local news from the 1970s and 1980s when I grew up, I notice that there was much more of a focus on the urban core then. Now, as soon as the anchors finish covering the daily homicides, they start talking about Sparta, Warrenton, etc. ad nauseum.
I'm pretty sure there are much more interesting things to cover than high school kids cutting through a cornfield in Red Bud, but not when the news comes first, it never stops, and it's coverage you can count on!
Other than these things, I don't get a small town vibe at all. We need to own our distinction as a major and important city in my opinion!
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For what it's worth, if you Google "big small town", St. Louis does not appear in the first few pages of results. Baton Rouge, Tuscaloosa, Winnipeg and Columbus all show up, but not St. Louis. I've never considered St. Louis to be a big small town, and I don't really know people who do. Maybe some folks just see big-small-town as a descriptor for friendliness or approachability (...all within reach?).
Personally, I feel like 2-1/2 million is a bit large for a small town.
Personally, I feel like 2-1/2 million is a bit large for a small town.
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You know what really grinds my gears?
All these small municipalities that are selectively independent.
Our company's office is in Richmond Heights, but we don't put "Richmond Heights" as our address. We list our address as being in Saint Louis, MO. The mail still gets delivered; we just list 63117 as our zip code. When I grew up in Brentwood, I never listed "Brentwood" as my address. My parents' mail keeps getting delivered to their house in Brentwood, even though the mail says Saint Louis, showing Brentwood only in the zip code. And I actively want STL City to again be a part of STL County.
This claiming STL when really in the County is endemic through much of STL County, with residents listing their mailing address as "Saint Louis" when they really live in U City, Clayton, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Bridgeton, Creve Coeur, Town & Country, Dellwood, unincorporated STL County, wherever. I'm not sure if Florissant or Chesterfield residents often list STL as their address, as they live in a zip code that starts with "630**" rather than "631**". Still, so many people who live in the County claim the City for their address, yet are revolted when they are confronted with the thought that they may one day reside in the same County as the City of Saint Louis.
Is the County just full of arbitrary "small town" municipalities that all want to claim STL as their City?
Then why do so many of these same people flip out when talking about reincorporating the City as part of the County? Are they afraid of the City as a burden for taxes, or their "small town" independence? Like what, when they're talking to people on a trip out of town, they always say they're from STL, but when back in the metro area, they've got to be adamant that they're not really from STL, because that's a social faux paus sometimes, but that they're really from "Sunset Hills", but no one out of town would have any idea what "Sunset Hills" is so they say STL? What the hell is that about? Do you just not want people you meet out of town to think you live in outstate somewhere in a real small town, that now you'd rather be from a real City with pro sports and tall buildings and museums, rather than a real Midwestern small town full of tractors and kudzu and pickup trucks?
If the City becomes part of the County, would that change their supposed prestige about living in "Sunset Hills", or "Olivette", or "Hazelwood"? If it's good enough for the mailman to deal with, and cool enough to share with some stranger who you meet on a trip to Baltimore, it should be good enough to actually stand by when you're back in your own home town, not having to differentiate between what hometown you say and what hometown you mean. Otherwise, just move to a real small town, and have pride telling these people you meet out of town that you're from a town like New Melle or Warrenton or Imperial, and that you had to fly out of Saint Louis to get wherever you went. Enjoy that small town mentality now.
And that's what grinds my gears.
All these small municipalities that are selectively independent.
Our company's office is in Richmond Heights, but we don't put "Richmond Heights" as our address. We list our address as being in Saint Louis, MO. The mail still gets delivered; we just list 63117 as our zip code. When I grew up in Brentwood, I never listed "Brentwood" as my address. My parents' mail keeps getting delivered to their house in Brentwood, even though the mail says Saint Louis, showing Brentwood only in the zip code. And I actively want STL City to again be a part of STL County.
This claiming STL when really in the County is endemic through much of STL County, with residents listing their mailing address as "Saint Louis" when they really live in U City, Clayton, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Bridgeton, Creve Coeur, Town & Country, Dellwood, unincorporated STL County, wherever. I'm not sure if Florissant or Chesterfield residents often list STL as their address, as they live in a zip code that starts with "630**" rather than "631**". Still, so many people who live in the County claim the City for their address, yet are revolted when they are confronted with the thought that they may one day reside in the same County as the City of Saint Louis.
Is the County just full of arbitrary "small town" municipalities that all want to claim STL as their City?
Then why do so many of these same people flip out when talking about reincorporating the City as part of the County? Are they afraid of the City as a burden for taxes, or their "small town" independence? Like what, when they're talking to people on a trip out of town, they always say they're from STL, but when back in the metro area, they've got to be adamant that they're not really from STL, because that's a social faux paus sometimes, but that they're really from "Sunset Hills", but no one out of town would have any idea what "Sunset Hills" is so they say STL? What the hell is that about? Do you just not want people you meet out of town to think you live in outstate somewhere in a real small town, that now you'd rather be from a real City with pro sports and tall buildings and museums, rather than a real Midwestern small town full of tractors and kudzu and pickup trucks?
If the City becomes part of the County, would that change their supposed prestige about living in "Sunset Hills", or "Olivette", or "Hazelwood"? If it's good enough for the mailman to deal with, and cool enough to share with some stranger who you meet on a trip to Baltimore, it should be good enough to actually stand by when you're back in your own home town, not having to differentiate between what hometown you say and what hometown you mean. Otherwise, just move to a real small town, and have pride telling these people you meet out of town that you're from a town like New Melle or Warrenton or Imperial, and that you had to fly out of Saint Louis to get wherever you went. Enjoy that small town mentality now.
And that's what grinds my gears.
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Me too. The big small town thing doesn't offend me. It just means when you go to an art show, City Affair or a certain venue to a certain band or a particular bar you are likely to run into the same relatively small circle of people. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a small city in that it has 319,000 people.gone corporate wrote:You know what really grinds my gears?
All these small municipalities that are selectively independent.
Our company's office is in Richmond Heights, but we don't put "Richmond Heights" as our address. We list our address as being in Saint Louis, MO. The mail still gets delivered; we just list 63117 as our zip code. When I grew up in Brentwood, I never listed "Brentwood" as my address. My parents' mail keeps getting delivered to their house in Brentwood, even though the mail says Saint Louis, showing Brentwood only in the zip code. And I actively want STL City to again be a part of STL County.
This claiming STL when really in the County is endemic through much of STL County, with residents listing their mailing address as "Saint Louis" when they really live in U City, Clayton, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Bridgeton, Creve Coeur, Town & Country, Dellwood, unincorporated STL County, wherever. I'm not sure if Florissant or Chesterfield residents often list STL as their address, as they live in a zip code that starts with "630**" rather than "631**". Still, so many people who live in the County claim the City for their address, yet are revolted when they are confronted with the thought that they may one day reside in the same County as the City of Saint Louis.
Is the County just full of arbitrary "small town" municipalities that all want to claim STL as their City?
Then why do so many of these same people flip out when talking about reincorporating the City as part of the County? Are they afraid of the City as a burden for taxes, or their "small town" independence? Like what, when they're talking to people on a trip out of town, they always say they're from STL, but when back in the metro area, they've got to be adamant that they're not really from STL, because that's a social faux paus sometimes, but that they're really from "Sunset Hills", but no one out of town would have any idea what "Sunset Hills" is so they say STL? What the hell is that about? Do you just not want people you meet out of town to think you live in outstate somewhere in a real small town, that now you'd rather be from a real City with pro sports and tall buildings and museums, rather than a real Midwestern small town full of tractors and kudzu and pickup trucks?
If the City becomes part of the County, would that change their supposed prestige about living in "Sunset Hills", or "Olivette", or "Hazelwood"? If it's good enough for the mailman to deal with, and cool enough to share with some stranger who you meet on a trip to Baltimore, it should be good enough to actually stand by when you're back in your own home town, not having to differentiate between what hometown you say and what hometown you mean. Otherwise, just move to a real small town, and have pride telling these people you meet out of town that you're from a town like New Melle or Warrenton or Imperial, and that you had to fly out of Saint Louis to get wherever you went. Enjoy that small town mentality now.
And that's what grinds my gears.
Now on the 90 cities west of us in the county...I find it damaging and thoroughly dishonest to claim St. Louis as your home or business address when you are a citizen/building of/in another city. They can't vote here and don't pay taxes here. That to me is the biggest thing. But, trust me, this argument falls on deaf ears 9 times out of 10 depending on the audience. I've gotten in near shouting matches over this, it's a losing battle to try and educate the masses on this city/county thing. It grinds my gears too.
I think there is definitely a sense of entitlement to the city's name out in the burbs, since a lot of the suburbs are the result of white flight - people who are descended from people from the city and who as a result view themselves as "St. Louisans". The mentality of a lot of peoples' grandparents having grown up in (insert neighborhood here) and thinking they were "run out" by the no-good (insert racial epithet for blacks here) who are now destroying their city. That's the psychology of it in my opinion.
- 11K
It would only be symbolic, but the city should send a cease and desist letter to all municipalities, as well as businesses using the Arch and/or the city in their marketing.
- 1,792
I wasn't gonna comment on this thread but someone has to stick up for us county folks. I am not from St. Louis and have never lived in the City proper but I feel just as connected to it as if I had. And I do write St. Louis in my address line. Unfortunately my job is in the County and unless I were drive from Penrose, its a much shorter drive from Olivette. I do pay taxes to support Metro, and Zoo Museum District. I have also spent plenty of money in the City on entertainment food and booze. But until the Metrolink extends to my employer I will probably stay way out here because I'm not a big fan of driving my life away.
I think its important to remember that these are all just imaginary lines someone drew on a piece of paper and we are a region with regional goals and regional issues. So yes I'm going to keep claiming St. Louis as my address. I bet even Metro East would put St. Louis on their mail if they could. The only divide is in our minds.
Secondly this is something which I have been interested in. Part of the appeal of st. louis is we aren't was homogenous soup. I think shadrach had it right when he said we were a "big collection of small towns". Each with its own charachter.
Downtown, Midtown, CWE, The Grove, South Grand, Lafayette Square, Soulard, The Hill, Dogtown, Old North, Cherokee Street and in the county The Loop, Clayton, Maplewood, Kirkwood, Webster Groves, Ferguson, East Asia on Olive (I may be coining it but it needs a name) and probably a lot more that I'm less familiar with.
So why not turn our biggest fault, the balkanization of St. Louis, into our biggest asset. The Gateway City, with "gateways" read entry points to each of these and more neighborhoods. Recentering the neighborhoods and creating inviting and distinct entry points to move from one neighborhood to another. Lets stabilize the enclaves falling into disrepair, lets create new ones that bring in a new perspective add new life to this entire region.
And while your at it get a City/County Merger ballot initiative I can vote for.
I think its important to remember that these are all just imaginary lines someone drew on a piece of paper and we are a region with regional goals and regional issues. So yes I'm going to keep claiming St. Louis as my address. I bet even Metro East would put St. Louis on their mail if they could. The only divide is in our minds.
Secondly this is something which I have been interested in. Part of the appeal of st. louis is we aren't was homogenous soup. I think shadrach had it right when he said we were a "big collection of small towns". Each with its own charachter.
Downtown, Midtown, CWE, The Grove, South Grand, Lafayette Square, Soulard, The Hill, Dogtown, Old North, Cherokee Street and in the county The Loop, Clayton, Maplewood, Kirkwood, Webster Groves, Ferguson, East Asia on Olive (I may be coining it but it needs a name) and probably a lot more that I'm less familiar with.
So why not turn our biggest fault, the balkanization of St. Louis, into our biggest asset. The Gateway City, with "gateways" read entry points to each of these and more neighborhoods. Recentering the neighborhoods and creating inviting and distinct entry points to move from one neighborhood to another. Lets stabilize the enclaves falling into disrepair, lets create new ones that bring in a new perspective add new life to this entire region.
And while your at it get a City/County Merger ballot initiative I can vote for.
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STLEnginerd, I don't agree, but it doesn't matter. Suburbanite who agree with you like it both ways, and there is nothing short of a full on merger that will change this. My question to you: when is it NOT okay by your logic to say you live in St. Louis or you're from St. Louis? You already assume Illinois people say that, even though they do not. Some will, but the vast majority who live there absolutely do not. Is St. Charles okay? Is Festus okay? Is Arnold okay? Is Mascoutah okay? Where does this logic end and when do the "imaginary lines" end and become another place entirely? Lastly, don't you and others have pride in Olivette? If so, why not wave that flag, it's a great little town. Add Maplewood to that too, nice place...be proud of it and don't call it something it is not. The last thing to remember in this discussion...the lines are real, they are separate entities. Your logic is based on a feel good one, mine is based in reality and accuracy. You don't pay the 1% earnings tax on your W2 do you? You pay your local tax to Olivette not St. Louis. If ABI or SLU decided to move to Olivette, believe it or not, it would be a real blow to those who live in the real St. Louis.
^Although not quiet as "cranky" about it, I share a lot of Mark's views. These "imaginary lines" do a lot to create very real disparities and issues. To me, I first and foremost am a resident of the city b/c I love it for what it is but I additionally fully feel I am "putting my money where my mouth is". In this society, we vote with our dollars.
That said, as much as I love the city, I find it hard to criticize people who leave the city or choose the county for certain reasons which are often discussed on this board.
That said, as much as I love the city, I find it hard to criticize people who leave the city or choose the county for certain reasons which are often discussed on this board.
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In my feel goody way I would say home is where the heart is.
I do have pride in Olivette and often tell my coworkers that it is a really nice place to live and quality of life is far better than commuting from Lake St. Louis, Belleville, or Jeff County which is where the vast majority of them seem to live. I also have had to stave off the stigma that it is "ghetto" from people who live in Creve Couer haha.
I feel like you're trying to double secret divorce the county. Cities exist because of efficiencies of congregating. Suburbia exists because the efficiencies stop mattering as much, gas was cheap, travel times got shorter. Lafayette square was started as a suburb. Lets not forget the side that came up with idea to separate in the first place.
Even though we eat our bread butter side down out here, we really are one region. I claim St. Louis because I am part of that too. So I would say my way is based on accuracy while yours is based on precision.
I do have pride in Olivette and often tell my coworkers that it is a really nice place to live and quality of life is far better than commuting from Lake St. Louis, Belleville, or Jeff County which is where the vast majority of them seem to live. I also have had to stave off the stigma that it is "ghetto" from people who live in Creve Couer haha.
I feel like you're trying to double secret divorce the county. Cities exist because of efficiencies of congregating. Suburbia exists because the efficiencies stop mattering as much, gas was cheap, travel times got shorter. Lafayette square was started as a suburb. Lets not forget the side that came up with idea to separate in the first place.
Even though we eat our bread butter side down out here, we really are one region. I claim St. Louis because I am part of that too. So I would say my way is based on accuracy while yours is based on precision.
And I took so long writing that I see I probably should have just dropped it...
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I can appreciate the sensitivities that go with being on the receiving end of self-righteous judgment, whether in its 20th century suburban or 21st century urbanist form. When I hear it, it can tempt me to get defensive or critical, then grab my bag of marbles and go home.
But I think we need more regionalism, not less. I've lived in the Central West End for almost sixteen years and am a thorough-going urbanist. But I want everyone in O'Fallon (Missouri or Illinois) to think of themselves as St. Louisans. I want them to feel ownership of -- and responsibility for -- the whole region.
We can't accomplish anything if we're always in a p***ing match with each other.
But I think we need more regionalism, not less. I've lived in the Central West End for almost sixteen years and am a thorough-going urbanist. But I want everyone in O'Fallon (Missouri or Illinois) to think of themselves as St. Louisans. I want them to feel ownership of -- and responsibility for -- the whole region.
We can't accomplish anything if we're always in a p***ing match with each other.
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sounds like this would be a great topic, imaginary lines and identity, for StayTunedSTL, I'd love to see it discussed. It is needlessly complex IMO but it seems everyone sees "St Louis" differently, I know I do, you only need to look at my avatar to see that.
But yes, would love to see this covered on StayTunedSTL, maybe you can make that happen Alex?
But yes, would love to see this covered on StayTunedSTL, maybe you can make that happen Alex?