For what it's worth, if you Google "big small town", St. Louis does not appear in the first few pages of results. Baton Rouge, Tuscaloosa, Winnipeg and Columbus all show up, but not St. Louis. I've never considered St. Louis to be a big small town, and I don't really know people who do. Maybe some folks just see big-small-town as a descriptor for friendliness or approachability (...all within reach?).
Personally, I feel like 2-1/2 million is a bit large for a small town.
You know what really grinds my gears?
All these small municipalities that are selectively independent.
Our company's office is in Richmond Heights, but we don't put "Richmond Heights" as our address. We list our address as being in Saint Louis, MO. The mail still gets delivered; we just list 63117 as our zip code. When I grew up in Brentwood, I never listed "Brentwood" as my address. My parents' mail keeps getting delivered to their house in Brentwood, even though the mail says Saint Louis, showing Brentwood only in the zip code. And I actively want STL City to again be a part of STL County.
This claiming STL when really in the County is endemic through much of STL County, with residents listing their mailing address as "Saint Louis" when they really live in U City, Clayton, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Bridgeton, Creve Coeur, Town & Country, Dellwood, unincorporated STL County, wherever. I'm not sure if Florissant or Chesterfield residents often list STL as their address, as they live in a zip code that starts with "630**" rather than "631**". Still, so many people who live in the County claim the City for their address, yet are revolted when they are confronted with the thought that they may one day reside in the same County as the City of Saint Louis.
Is the County just full of arbitrary "small town" municipalities that all want to claim STL as their City?
Then why do so many of these same people flip out when talking about reincorporating the City as part of the County? Are they afraid of the City as a burden for taxes, or their "small town" independence? Like what, when they're talking to people on a trip out of town, they always say they're from STL, but when back in the metro area, they've got to be adamant that they're not really from STL, because that's a social faux paus sometimes, but that they're really from "Sunset Hills", but no one out of town would have any idea what "Sunset Hills" is so they say STL? What the hell is that about? Do you just not want people you meet out of town to think you live in outstate somewhere in a real small town, that now you'd rather be from a real City with pro sports and tall buildings and museums, rather than a real Midwestern small town full of tractors and kudzu and pickup trucks?
If the City becomes part of the County, would that change their supposed prestige about living in "Sunset Hills", or "Olivette", or "Hazelwood"? If it's good enough for the mailman to deal with, and cool enough to share with some stranger who you meet on a trip to Baltimore, it should be good enough to actually stand by when you're back in your own home town, not having to differentiate between what hometown you say and what hometown you mean. Otherwise, just move to a real small town, and have pride telling these people you meet out of town that you're from a town like New Melle or Warrenton or Imperial, and that you had to fly out of Saint Louis to get wherever you went. Enjoy that small town mentality now.
gone corporate wrote:You know what really grinds my gears?
All these small municipalities that are selectively independent.
Our company's office is in Richmond Heights, but we don't put "Richmond Heights" as our address. We list our address as being in Saint Louis, MO. The mail still gets delivered; we just list 63117 as our zip code. When I grew up in Brentwood, I never listed "Brentwood" as my address. My parents' mail keeps getting delivered to their house in Brentwood, even though the mail says Saint Louis, showing Brentwood only in the zip code. And I actively want STL City to again be a part of STL County.
This claiming STL when really in the County is endemic through much of STL County, with residents listing their mailing address as "Saint Louis" when they really live in U City, Clayton, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Bridgeton, Creve Coeur, Town & Country, Dellwood, unincorporated STL County, wherever. I'm not sure if Florissant or Chesterfield residents often list STL as their address, as they live in a zip code that starts with "630**" rather than "631**". Still, so many people who live in the County claim the City for their address, yet are revolted when they are confronted with the thought that they may one day reside in the same County as the City of Saint Louis.
Is the County just full of arbitrary "small town" municipalities that all want to claim STL as their City?
Then why do so many of these same people flip out when talking about reincorporating the City as part of the County? Are they afraid of the City as a burden for taxes, or their "small town" independence? Like what, when they're talking to people on a trip out of town, they always say they're from STL, but when back in the metro area, they've got to be adamant that they're not really from STL, because that's a social faux paus sometimes, but that they're really from "Sunset Hills", but no one out of town would have any idea what "Sunset Hills" is so they say STL? What the hell is that about? Do you just not want people you meet out of town to think you live in outstate somewhere in a real small town, that now you'd rather be from a real City with pro sports and tall buildings and museums, rather than a real Midwestern small town full of tractors and kudzu and pickup trucks?
If the City becomes part of the County, would that change their supposed prestige about living in "Sunset Hills", or "Olivette", or "Hazelwood"? If it's good enough for the mailman to deal with, and cool enough to share with some stranger who you meet on a trip to Baltimore, it should be good enough to actually stand by when you're back in your own home town, not having to differentiate between what hometown you say and what hometown you mean. Otherwise, just move to a real small town, and have pride telling these people you meet out of town that you're from a town like New Melle or Warrenton or Imperial, and that you had to fly out of Saint Louis to get wherever you went. Enjoy that small town mentality now.
And that's what grinds my gears.
Me too. The big small town thing doesn't offend me. It just means when you go to an art show, City Affair or a certain venue to a certain band or a particular bar you are likely to run into the same relatively small circle of people. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a small city in that it has 319,000 people.
Now on the 90 cities west of us in the county...I find it damaging and thoroughly dishonest to claim St. Louis as your home or business address when you are a citizen/building of/in another city. They can't vote here and don't pay taxes here. That to me is the biggest thing. But, trust me, this argument falls on deaf ears 9 times out of 10 depending on the audience. I've gotten in near shouting matches over this, it's a losing battle to try and educate the masses on this city/county thing. It grinds my gears too.
I think there is definitely a sense of entitlement to the city's name out in the burbs, since a lot of the suburbs are the result of white flight - people who are descended from people from the city and who as a result view themselves as "St. Louisans". The mentality of a lot of peoples' grandparents having grown up in (insert neighborhood here) and thinking they were "run out" by the no-good (insert racial epithet for blacks here) who are now destroying their city. That's the psychology of it in my opinion.
It would only be symbolic, but the city should send a cease and desist letter to all municipalities, as well as businesses using the Arch and/or the city in their marketing.
I wasn't gonna comment on this thread but someone has to stick up for us county folks. I am not from St. Louis and have never lived in the City proper but I feel just as connected to it as if I had. And I do write St. Louis in my address line. Unfortunately my job is in the County and unless I were drive from Penrose, its a much shorter drive from Olivette. I do pay taxes to support Metro, and Zoo Museum District. I have also spent plenty of money in the City on entertainment food and booze. But until the Metrolink extends to my employer I will probably stay way out here because I'm not a big fan of driving my life away.
I think its important to remember that these are all just imaginary lines someone drew on a piece of paper and we are a region with regional goals and regional issues. So yes I'm going to keep claiming St. Louis as my address. I bet even Metro East would put St. Louis on their mail if they could. The only divide is in our minds.
Secondly this is something which I have been interested in. Part of the appeal of st. louis is we aren't was homogenous soup. I think shadrach had it right when he said we were a "big collection of small towns". Each with its own charachter.
Downtown, Midtown, CWE, The Grove, South Grand, Lafayette Square, Soulard, The Hill, Dogtown, Old North, Cherokee Street and in the county The Loop, Clayton, Maplewood, Kirkwood, Webster Groves, Ferguson, East Asia on Olive (I may be coining it but it needs a name) and probably a lot more that I'm less familiar with.
So why not turn our biggest fault, the balkanization of St. Louis, into our biggest asset. The Gateway City, with "gateways" read entry points to each of these and more neighborhoods. Recentering the neighborhoods and creating inviting and distinct entry points to move from one neighborhood to another. Lets stabilize the enclaves falling into disrepair, lets create new ones that bring in a new perspective add new life to this entire region.
And while your at it get a City/County Merger ballot initiative I can vote for.
STLEnginerd, I don't agree, but it doesn't matter. Suburbanite who agree with you like it both ways, and there is nothing short of a full on merger that will change this. My question to you: when is it NOT okay by your logic to say you live in St. Louis or you're from St. Louis? You already assume Illinois people say that, even though they do not. Some will, but the vast majority who live there absolutely do not. Is St. Charles okay? Is Festus okay? Is Arnold okay? Is Mascoutah okay? Where does this logic end and when do the "imaginary lines" end and become another place entirely? Lastly, don't you and others have pride in Olivette? If so, why not wave that flag, it's a great little town. Add Maplewood to that too, nice place...be proud of it and don't call it something it is not. The last thing to remember in this discussion...the lines are real, they are separate entities. Your logic is based on a feel good one, mine is based in reality and accuracy. You don't pay the 1% earnings tax on your W2 do you? You pay your local tax to Olivette not St. Louis. If ABI or SLU decided to move to Olivette, believe it or not, it would be a real blow to those who live in the real St. Louis.
^Although not quiet as "cranky" about it, I share a lot of Mark's views. These "imaginary lines" do a lot to create very real disparities and issues. To me, I first and foremost am a resident of the city b/c I love it for what it is but I additionally fully feel I am "putting my money where my mouth is". In this society, we vote with our dollars.
That said, as much as I love the city, I find it hard to criticize people who leave the city or choose the county for certain reasons which are often discussed on this board.
In my feel goody way I would say home is where the heart is.
I do have pride in Olivette and often tell my coworkers that it is a really nice place to live and quality of life is far better than commuting from Lake St. Louis, Belleville, or Jeff County which is where the vast majority of them seem to live. I also have had to stave off the stigma that it is "ghetto" from people who live in Creve Couer haha.
I feel like you're trying to double secret divorce the county. Cities exist because of efficiencies of congregating. Suburbia exists because the efficiencies stop mattering as much, gas was cheap, travel times got shorter. Lafayette square was started as a suburb. Lets not forget the side that came up with idea to separate in the first place.
Even though we eat our bread butter side down out here, we really are one region. I claim St. Louis because I am part of that too. So I would say my way is based on accuracy while yours is based on precision.
I can appreciate the sensitivities that go with being on the receiving end of self-righteous judgment, whether in its 20th century suburban or 21st century urbanist form. When I hear it, it can tempt me to get defensive or critical, then grab my bag of marbles and go home.
But I think we need more regionalism, not less. I've lived in the Central West End for almost sixteen years and am a thorough-going urbanist. But I want everyone in O'Fallon (Missouri or Illinois) to think of themselves as St. Louisans. I want them to feel ownership of -- and responsibility for -- the whole region.
We can't accomplish anything if we're always in a p***ing match with each other.
sounds like this would be a great topic, imaginary lines and identity, for StayTunedSTL, I'd love to see it discussed. It is needlessly complex IMO but it seems everyone sees "St Louis" differently, I know I do, you only need to look at my avatar to see that.
But yes, would love to see this covered on StayTunedSTL, maybe you can make that happen Alex?
STLEnginerd wrote:Even though we eat our bread butter side down out here, we really are one region.
No self righteous, overly critical, etc tone here but that is just glossing over things and ignoring a large part of the reality in my opinion. If there were no city/county divide and multitude of county municipalities and tax revenue was shared evenly across the boards I would agree with you. Of course thats the opposite of what the reality is.
To me its simple. There are two things the city needs to be thrive: Community and revenue. By living in the city you're a part of this. By living outside the city your impact there is greatly reduced. Yes, there are a few exceptions here and there: A business owner whose business is in the city but chooses to live in the county or that Alex Ihnen fellow for example b/c the dude is such a bulldog activist for the city in my opinion... (Slight sarcasm, but only slight).
Presbyterian wrote:We can't accomplish anything if we're always in a p***ing match with each other.
No urination is occurring here on my part. Just calling it how I see it.
As an outstater (Southeast Missouri), I consider myself a Missourian. I don't really say I'm from any particular region, though I might say I'm from the Ozarks since I am not from the Bootheel.
Having never lived in St. Louis myself, generally when I refer to St. Louis I mean the region as a whole. Otherwise I specify St. Louis city or St. Louis County or a specific town/county. In reference to the sports teams, I say St. Louis, though right now all of them are in the city anyway.
I see positives and negatives for living in the city and the county. I can't fault anybody for where they choose to live. I think it would be good if urbanites and suburbanites could learn to get along and feel more unified. Obviously bickering doesn't do any good. I know the nastiness comes from both sides, though, and isn't likely to stop any time soon.
Wow... How the living hell are we going to get City-County merger underway when we can't even have peace between Mid County and the City? Why do we need to flare up so much when you've got two regional supporters, full of civic pride enough that they're participating on this site and each favor regional unity, but just that one is in the City and the other in the County? It's almost that we're looking for more Balkanization.
Just because someone supports STL but doesn't live in the City doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. Think about all the people who move to the County for certain school districts; are they taking away from the region by wanting their kids to get a solid education? Let us remember that many of STL's biggest backers, most important leaders, and strongest advocates of City-County merger live in the County! Do people really think there can be merger without cooperation? Will the votes come from those held in disdain? Why are we Balkanizing ourselves further?
Yes, the borders are real, all of them. We have a major City, and we have a bunch of small towns. Sometimes, it all feels like an urban metropolis, and sometimes it feels like a collection of small towns. That's because the Metro Area is both! The corner of Olive and Tucker sure doesn't feel like anything resembling a small town (maybe that stupid one story drive thru US Bank branch), and the Webster Groves-Kirkwood football game doesn't feel like anything urban in the slightest. The Metro Area has areas that are both small town and big city, but not necessarily in the same place or at the same time. Still, this is what most of us hope to see merge together.
Let's make sure to work towards cooperation, and integration, rather than Balkanziation. Otherwise, we're slaughtering the cow from whose very teets we get our milk.
If we ever do get to a "borough-ish" like system which i support can we agree to retire the borough term in favor of something a little less New York and a little more St. Louis.
My vote is for Bailliage
from wikipedia
The term originated in France (bailie being the Old French term for a bailiff). Under the ancien régime in France, the bailli was the king's representative in a bailliage, charged with the application of justice and control of the administration.
gone corporate wrote:Wow... How the living hell are we going to get City-County merger underway when we can't even have peace between Mid County and the City? Why do we need to flare up so much when you've got two regional supporters, full of civic pride enough that they're participating on this site and each favor regional unity, but just that one is in the City and the other in the County? It's almost that we're looking for more Balkanization.
Just because someone supports STL but doesn't live in the City doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. Think about all the people who move to the County for certain school districts; are they taking away from the region by wanting their kids to get a solid education? Let us remember that many of STL's biggest backers, most important leaders, and strongest advocates of City-County merger live in the County! Do people really think there can be merger without cooperation? Will the votes come from those held in disdain? Why are we Balkanizing ourselves further?
Yes, the borders are real, all of them. We have a major City, and we have a bunch of small towns. Sometimes, it all feels like an urban metropolis, and sometimes it feels like a collection of small towns. That's because the Metro Area is both! The corner of Olive and Tucker sure doesn't feel like anything resembling a small town (maybe that stupid one story drive thru US Bank branch), and the Webster Groves-Kirkwood football game doesn't feel like anything urban in the slightest. The Metro Area has areas that are both small town and big city, but not necessarily in the same place or at the same time. Still, this is what most of us hope to see merge together.
Very well said. I feel like sometimes there is too much emphasis placed on the governmental boundaries that divide us in this region and not enough emphasis on our collective civic identity...even on this forum.
Where one lives is a very personal choice, and this choice is usually influenced by a variety of factors. I know residents from all parts of St. Louis County as well as people that live in (gasp!) Jefferson and St. Charles counties that spend significant amounts of time and/or money in the city. I also know hoosiers in south St. Louis that don't know anything about the city that surrounds them except for places to get drunk and/or to buy cigarettes.
Living in the city doesn't necessarily mean you're in favor of a stronger urban core and connected as a stakeholder, just as suburban residents aren't automatically ignorant and/or apathetic about the community at large.
No, I'm just in favor a borough system. Its how I'd personally like to see St. Louis.
I agree. We already have a pseudo-division with North County, West County, South County, and STL City.
How would you want that to operate? Like New York with a mayor of the entire 5 boroughs?
Or each borough has its own president that presides over it?
(Maybe I should post this in the City/County merger thread)
I'd imagine it would follow closely to NYC's system of one mayor and borough presidents.
Really I just want consolidation, 5 munis, 5 boroughs, 8 munis, just consolidate. I know the borough system failed in 1962 but I think, or want to believe, its easier to inform the public today.
I also wouldn't mind a different term instead of borough, maybe Arrondissement or Bailliage like STLEnginerd recommended.
