Hibernia Apts - 6300 Clayton Avenue

DogtownBnR · PostDec 10, 2012#12012-12-10T15:59+00:00

According to the Clayton-Tamm Neighborhood Association, a new apartment complex is being proposed on the site of the old 'Forest Park Lumber' yard. With this development, the new zoo offices at the FP Hospital site and the new Heavy Riff Brewing Co., Dogtown should become even more vibrant. This is great news, assuming it happens.
Here is the email sent by the CTNA:

Tomorrow 12/11 at the Living World, from 4-7 there is an open house for you to go talk to the development folks at the Zoo to answer any and all of your questions on their plans. Parking is free starting at 4pm in the lot closest to the Living World.
There is a development that is being proposed at the site of the old lumber yard, it is an apartment complex. The developers will come speak at our next meeting on 2/21.

Thanks!

Mark Groth · PostDec 10, 2012#22012-12-10T16:10+00:00

Do you know who the apartment complex developers are?

DogtownBnR · PostDec 10, 2012#32012-12-10T16:29+00:00

^The quote that I posted from the CTNA is the only information I have at this point.
That is the first I've heard of this. I won't be going to the meeting, so
we'll have to get an update from the CTNA or if somebody goes, please post
any info you obtain... thanks in advance!

Mark Groth · PostDec 10, 2012#42012-12-10T17:25+00:00

This could really add a lot of people to an already great intersection at Clayton and Tamm. I've always thought Dogtown could use some more housing, it's got high occupancy rates, and its so close to Forest Park, Clayton, I-64, Hampton Ave, and is VERY walkable. And like DogtownBnR mentioned, with Heavy Riff coming soon, Dogtown is becoming even more awesome.

DogtownBnR · PostDec 10, 2012#52012-12-10T17:42+00:00

^Another reason Dogtown apartments do so well is Washington Univ. students and
BJC med students. Close proximity to WU and BJC makes it a prime central location.
Not to mention, the Mercedes dealership moving in to the old Channel 2 site
and the new apartment building at the Highlands. Dogtown is experiencing a
boom. Love it!

ward24 · PostDec 10, 2012#62012-12-10T18:01+00:00

Basics: 60 units, Klitzing Welsch is the architect, immediately east of Seamus McDaniel's parking lot, the neighborhood assn. still needs to weigh in on a zoning issue, and the dev. is still doing what they do financially. So I'm optimistic, but not every "i" is dotted or "t" crossed yet.

Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman

Mark Groth · PostDec 10, 2012#72012-12-10T18:11+00:00

^Wow! I like it. built to the street along Clayton. Thanks for sharing.

mmreid · PostDec 10, 2012#82012-12-10T18:54+00:00

I'm impressed with the modern look and large windows. Certainly better than the Lehman building just down the street. Excited for all the new developments in the neighborhood.

arch city · PostDec 10, 2012#92012-12-10T19:04+00:00

I like the height for the area. Should be relatively free of NIMBY complaints - not so sure. Hopefully it will be for middle-market renters. I hope this is just a prelim rendering. My hope is that the architect goes a little more modern for this infill.

Here is the location (Clayton & Graham) in question - front elevation.

Here is the rear elevation - Victoria and Graham streets.

wabash · PostDec 10, 2012#102012-12-10T19:12+00:00

Wow. Looks great. Along with the 276 Unit Cortona @ The Highlands there will be a lot more apartment stock in the Dogtown/Clayton-Tamm area.

Some of the apartments on the 4th and 5th floors will probably have views of Forest Park and Downtown.

Two things that could make this project better: SOME retail storefronts along the Clayton elevation (maybe at least one on the western end of the building?). And it'd be better if it was built all the way to Graham to maintain the street wall, instead of including a grassy strip.

DogtownBnR · PostDec 10, 2012#112012-12-10T19:23+00:00

That is an awesome looking building. It will be a great addition to Dogtown.

I agree on the street level retail, as long as the businesses do not take away
from the existing businesses in the neighborhood. I like how the parking lot is away from Clayton. I hope this gets built. Maybe this will help the less than hopping strip of businesses from Tamm to Graham on Clayton, north side of the street. The
ice cream shop has been vacant forever. With all of this new traffic, new biz on that strip and in Lehman could be justified. Good times in D-Town!!!

Alex Ihnen · PostDec 10, 2012#122012-12-10T19:24+00:00

wabash wrote:Wow. Looks great. Along with the 276 Unit Cortona @ The Highlands there will be a lot more apartment stock in the Dogtown/Clayton-Tamm area.

Some of the apartments on the 4th and 5th floors will probably have views of Forest Park and Downtown.

Two things that could make this project better: SOME retail storefronts along the Clayton elevation (maybe at least one on the western end of the building?). And it'd be better if it was built all the way to Graham to maintain the street wall, instead of including a grassy strip.

That's a great point - the building should be on the Clayton/Graham street wall instead of 15ft short.

debaliviere · PostDec 10, 2012#132012-12-10T20:28+00:00

DogtownBnR wrote:I agree on the street level retail, as long as the businesses do not take away from the existing businesses in the neighborhood. I like how the parking lot is away from Clayton. I hope this gets built. Maybe this will help the less than hopping strip of businesses from Tamm to Graham on Clayton, north side of the street. The
ice cream shop has been vacant forever. With all of this new traffic, new biz on that strip and in Lehman could be justified. Good times in D-Town!!!

Maybe at the very least, extend the building all the way to the corner of Graham and Clayton, then add a retail space at the corner.

downtown2007 · PostDec 11, 2012#142012-12-11T03:30+00:00

Please incorporate some street level retail.

RuskiSTL · PostDec 11, 2012#152012-12-11T04:29+00:00

Wonderful addition. As others have suggested, minor improvements are desirable. Only downside is I'll be without a favorite St. Patty's day pissing spot

framer · PostDec 11, 2012#162012-12-11T05:36+00:00

What a horrible rendering; let's hope the real thing looks better. I mean a LOT better!

flipz · PostDec 11, 2012#172012-12-11T15:11+00:00

I like the style. I think they can make it more urban but it seems like it would fit in well. I'm not too familiar with the area but from looking at the Streetview, it doesn't seem like there is much over two stories around. The area really could use new curbs/sidewalks though. It is amazing how much new curbs and sidewalks can do to the look of a neighborhood. Any idea on the cost of the project?

Presbyterian · PostDec 11, 2012#182012-12-11T17:00+00:00

I suspect the grassy strip along Graham is in line with the average building setback line along Graham. Since the building across Clayton goes up to the sidewalk, though, there could be grounds to do the same here. My instinct tells me that the grassy area is a strategy to smooth over any fears that single family homeowners might have about (what they might perceive as) an 800 pound gorilla moving in next door.

I agree about retail, though a developer couldn't help but notice the number of empty or underused storefronts in the area. Still, this site is less than 300 feet from what soon will be the zoo's main parking garage. That traffic could make retail more viable.

Overall, I like the design and think this will be a great contribution Dogtown.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 16, 2013#192013-01-16T18:44+00:00

It looks like the public meeting went less than smoothly:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... e0d34.html

Concerns about not enough parking and building height/materials.

onecity · PostJan 16, 2013#202013-01-16T19:15+00:00

What's with this pathological obsession with parking? I used to live in a 3 story 12-plex, next door to another 3 story 12-plex, with similar buildings on the other three corners of the intersection, 2 24-unit buildings, and a number of 6-unit buildings comprising most of the surrounding block in all 4 directions - with only a handful (5 or 10) SF or up/down residences in the same area. Most of these were 2-bedroom units with 2-3 residents per. Most of these buildings had less than half the number of parking spaces as units, and while parking was occasionally tight, I never had to park more than 3 blocks from where I lived. There was 2-side street parking and rear alley accessible parking. It worked. Not a big deal. Seriously. The developers should politely disregard neighborhood input on the parking matter, do full brick facades, and add more units where the lot currently is to cover the cost of the added brick. I know it might mean more people (gasp!) scandalously parking their cars in front of other peoples' houses, but that's how it works in a city, and if you can't deal with that, maybe you ought to live somewhere less dense.

Oh, and there were many students in the area as well as young professionals, working class, etc. Plenty of activity on the street, thus it was very safe. The world did not end.

Alex Ihnen · PostJan 16, 2013#212013-01-16T19:43+00:00

Interesting. I was just thinking about an idea related to the Aventura project. Why can't volunteers, or the city, or whomever conduct parking audits on these places once built? We never learn because we never investigate what happens. The assumption is that we need more parking, more parking, more parking, but do we? No one knows.

onecity · PostJan 16, 2013#222013-01-16T20:45+00:00

An aerial shot of the old stomping grounds. Note the general lack of parking lots and the level of density. For reference, the narrowest buildings (lower left, close together) all live on 42ft wide lots. All lots are about 130 ft deep. Blocks are 330 E-W x 660 N-S. Parking was not a problem.

framer · PostJan 17, 2013#232013-01-17T05:21+00:00

"Fiber cement panels". Ugh.

I repeat my earlier critique: this design looks/feels cheap.

Alex Ihnen · PostJan 17, 2013#242013-01-17T05:24+00:00

onecity wrote:An aerial shot of the old stomping grounds. Note the general lack of parking lots and the level of density. For reference, the narrowest buildings (lower left, close together) all live on 42ft wide lots. All lots are about 130 ft deep. Blocks are 330 E-W x 660 N-S. Parking was not a problem.

How do we not get this? How? No one, no one goes to another city and remembers the neighborhood with lots and lots of parking. The places we love in the city are dense. Why can't be build this way today?

ImprovSTL · PostJan 17, 2013#252013-01-17T13:28+00:00

Right! I had my a discussion with my wife about this same thing. How does St. Louis expect to grow when they are more concerned about a parking spot for every car, everywhere, and not density?