Yet another “War And Peace” email…
JJCoolbean wrote:I began attending SLU in 1992. In that year the school was named the most dangerous in the country. First, the campus did NOT extend to Vandeventer at that time. Between SLU and Vandeventer were several buildings not owned by SLU.
dutchtowner wrote:Not true.
The book you are talking about is "Crime at College: the Student Guide to Personal Safety." According to Amazon, it was published in August 1994 by "New Strategist Pubns Inc," which also jives with my memory. That was post West Pine shut down, post clocktower. I was mistaken that the bank wasn't taken down until '95, one year later.
First, I'm not sure that the book you mentioned is the only source of crime statistics on college campuses. Second, a book published in 1994 would be using data from pre-1994. However, it's not like I suggested that the shut down of West Pine and the building of the clocktower led directly to a decrease in crime, or at least the perception.
JJCoolbean wrote:I’m also not sure what you mean by Clark’s.
dutchtowner wrote:Clark's was the bar at Spring and Laclede that a powerful neighbor nudged into closing. It was followed in that space by a series of coffee houses with varying degrees of success until the building was demolished to make room for grass.
I believe I now remember the place. If I'm correct, they closed not long after I turned 21. The bars around campus were strict when it came to fake IDs and so we went off-campus when we were under 21. R.I.P. King Louie's.
I do remember the first coffee house, as well. So Biondi nudged them all into closing or just Clark's? Any evidence, by the way? How did Biondi do this exactly? I do remember some of the other bars around there either closing or changing ownership rather frequently. To me, that suggests an unstable marketplace. Did Biondi kill Caleco's as well? The last time I went by there, the former Caleco's was empty. Damn you, Biondi!
I'm sorry everyone for not comprehending the overriding logic of this forum sooner. That is, wherever there is green space it must be replaced by a skyscraper of at least 60 stories. C'mon, "big" towers? What are you guys overcompensating for? "All cities must look like Chicago." Repeat. "All cities must look like Chicago." Wash. Rinse. Relax.
JJCoolbean wrote:I don't quite follow your point. Yes, SLU's numbers were skewed by its surroundings. Thus, they bought up a lot of property which stretched the campus to Vandeventer and its other borders, closed off some streets and put up your favorite clock tower.
dutchtowner wrote:My point was simple. The book was junk statistics, and was not a reflection in any way on the safety of campus. If the same book was published again today, using the same state, SLU still might be number 1.
Says the man who "was mugged while at SLU during those years." Again, I never suggested that the crime occurred on the campus, but around the campus. Please read my post once again if you need the reminder. Again, I said that the area surrounding SLU was particularly rough. Then again, there wasn't much of a campus in those early 1990s days. There wasn't the (sorry) green space that there is today for students and faculty to enjoy. In general, students either commuted, stayed in their dorms or inside one of the few campus buildings that remained open at night, or drove to a different part of the city/suburbs for a particular club or bar.
By the way, did anyone else read the recent RFT article on Grand Center and Jassen Johnson's efforts? Did anyone else catch the part about how bad the area was in the early to mid 1990s? You know, the stuff about little boys and dirty old men only a couple of blocks from SLU's campus. Or how about the business owner who has had his business robbed "several" times in only a few years of operation. (Yes, he is a current business owner. Yes, he is off-campus.) Damn, those shoddy statistics! Why didn't the RFT mention the loss of "Clark's" or "The Golden Dynasty" as the ultimate cause of all things wrong in Midtown? I swear Bonwich and the anti-city PD must have had a hand in the writing of that piece.
Here’s the RFT article link:
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2007-06- ... t-to-suit/
dutchtowner wrote:The book based its ranking entirely on the crime stats for the county where the the college was located. Crime on campus and crime near campus had no bearing on SLU's ranking in the book. If the university was located in St. Louis Hills, it would have had the same ranking.
I don't have the book, and I never did read more than just the excerpt I saw at the time, so I can't definitively discuss the nature of the criteria that was used. However, I doubt it was based "entirely" on the crime statistics of the whole county. Many counties around the country have more than one campus, so wouldn't they have exactly the same crime results if that were the only criteria? It has been a number of years since I have read the piece, but I seem to remember the list being based on a radius around each campus.
So, if Saint Louis University were located in St. Louis Hills it would have had the same crime ranking? Is St. Louis Hills in the same county as Saint Louis University? I did not get that memo.
JJCoolbean wrote:I personally heard from students who were mugged.
dutchtowner wrote:Maybe you heard from me. I was mugged while at SLU during those years.
Maybe I did hear from you. Were you complaining about "junk" statisics?
JJCoolbean wrote:There used to be a Chinese restaurant right next to the bank that, again, was still standing and operating in 1992.
dutchtowner wrote:Yep. Golden Dynasty was a wonderful cheap lunch for students and staff. Too bad SLU ripped it down to replace it with... grass. Along with Bullfeathers, and 20 North, and the original Vito's.
Actually, the mention of the The Golden Dynasty was in reference to a previous statement of yours. You know, your inaccurate description of SLU's early-1990s boundaries?
Yes (or is it "yep"?), The Golden Dynasty was a "wonderful cheap lunch for students and staff." How the building preservation folks missed that building I will never know. That building had everything! It had a door. It had windows. It even had a roof. Such a waste. And those other bars/restaurants you mentioned, why weren't they spared? Oh, that's right, the evil anti-city Biondi relocated the university's Parks Campus from Cahokia to Downtown St. Louis. He's such a prick!
By the way, how is Vito? I went to school with the guy. Very nice, dude.
JJCoolbean wrote:As for Biondi being the man responsible for keeping SLU in Midtown, I was told this by Michael Garanzini who is now president of Loyola University of Chicago. Perhaps he was incorrect and it was Father Reinert. Does anyone have any proof one way or the other?
dutchtowner wrote:I doubt Mike Garanzini was mistaken. He may have been telling an untruth for some jesuitical reasons we couldn't possibly understand. Or you might have misunderstood him.
An "untruth" for some "jesuitical reasons we counldn't possibly understand?" Insert "Jedi" for "Jesuitical" and we have what sounds like a line from a Star Wars movie. "Weesa gonna die?!"
dutchtowner wrote:As far as proof goes, I don't have any, yet. But he may have written about it in his memoirs. The idea of moving was before SLU expanded east of Grand in a big way, and old man Busch's millions helped Father Reinert make the case to stay to those trustees who favored a move.
Or perhaps even both men had the option of relocating the campus. I do know that the idea of relocating wasn't a brief conversation among trustees. It started in the early to mid-1980s and it continued, to at least some degree, years later. So it could have been at the end of Reinert's tenure or the beginning of Biondi's reign... of TERROR!!!. Anywho, Biondi would probably have been able to move the campus if he had actually wanted to. Now that I understand Biondi so much better from you guys, I'm surprised Biondi didn't move SLU's campus to Laumeier Sculpture Park.
JJCoolbean wrote:For instance, see the often repeated comments on this forum regarding Biondi and Midtown development which seem to infer that, because Biondi has turned SLU into a fortress, he has actively and intentionally sabotaged midtown development.
dutchtowner wrote:I don't think he has intended to make Midtown worse. He targeted several neighborhood businesses that were not affecting "security," purchased them and ripped the buildings down. He had none of the foresight of his SJ brothers in Milwaukee, who turned a similar crap neighborhood around Marquette into a thriving college town. You can only get so far on putting some money in the Continental Building rehab, and years of promises of development at NE corner of Lindell and Grand.
First, you may just want to read up on the NE corner of Lindell and Grand thing. What "promises" were made, by the way? Second, SLU has done more than "putting some money in the Continental Building rehab." There is a new arena on the way and I believe we have been discussing changes made by SLU on campus and in the surrounding area. You may not like the changes, but perhaps you have a different objective than Father Biondi.
This is just speculation on my part, but it seems like a lot of you guys hold Biondi and SLU to a different standard than anybody else. When Joe Edwards develops a project, there is an aim to ultimately turn a profit. When one of the numerous area developers, such as Pyramid, rehabs an old building for lofts, there is an aim to ultimately turn a profit. Well, SLU is not in the sevice buisness of Joe Edwards. SLU is not in the real estate business like Pyramid. SLU is a private university. In a way, their objectives are more similar to a company like Anheuser-Busch, A.G. Edwards or Purina. Each of those three, by the way, built enclosed campuses with plenty of parking. They also were sure to include some green space.
SLU's business is attracting students. A better looking campus, improved facilities, and a safer environment have gone a long way to that end. The proof is in the pudding. Before the makeover, a significant majority of SLU students were from the St. Louis area. Now the majority are from outside of St. Louis. So, SLU is attracting young people from outside of St. Louis to our city. That's a pretty good thing, I would argue. According to, granted, the University's own findings, the campus environment has been the biggest asset in the turnaround.
For those of you who feel that Midtown would be so much better without SLU, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. These properties that SLU is buying up are for sale to anyone. So why do/did these properties sit abandoned for so long when, as has been suggested by some on this forum, Midtown has been perfectly safe? There are still spots immediately surrounding the SLU campus that are not owned by the university that sit dormant. Why aren't they bought up by a philanthropist like dutchtowner who, I am sure, would not place any value on personal profit with his inspired development of the property?
Folks, maybe Biondi's vision is not your vision. But by improving the campus environment and, get this, actually ENCOURAGING students to live on campus with the numerous housing options now available, SLU should be helping Midtown. But increasing the number of people living in Midtown isn’t the only thing as, ultimately, it is up to the entrepreneur out there to take things to the next level. It’s nice to see people like Jassen Johnson trying to get things going in the Locust Business District, but as of this posting we haven’t seen much outside of promises. That is what we are used to in St. Louis – promises. Biondi is one of the few who gets things done.
Biondi has replaced niche small-businesses (many of whom had revolving management) and derelict buildings with enhancements to the SLU campus experience. Is the campus unwelcoming to the non-SLU student? Probably. Is the former A.G. Edwards unwelcoming to the non-employee or customer? Probably. Yet, no barrier is stopping SLU students from going to the Fox or Symphony or any of the other places nearby. Let’s see what Johnson and company can deliver.
Finally, parking garages seem to be a pet-peeve with a lot of you guys. I’m not overly fond of them, either. However, please remember that many SLU students do still commute and that the parking garages that service the Fox, the Saint Louis Symphony, and other attractions in Midtown do serve a purpose. The majority of the people who visit these attractions do need a place to park. With Midtown’s reputation for crime, and with many of the patrons of advanced age, they probably aren’t going to want to walk a great distance. My ex-girlfriend used to work at the Fox and she said that the majority of the complaints they would receive was parking related. With, hopefully, more developments in the area in the future, the parking will become even more important. Sorry, not everybody can ride a skateboard and drink a can of Red Bull on their way to the Saint Louis Symphony.
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