Cool!
Cool. They must plan to have underground and above ground garages unless that will change too. Looking at the initial rendering, notice the garages to the west of the district.Citylover wrote:
Underground parking to Bottle District customers
DeBaliviere, I too hope those parking lots behind the Lammert and Bankers Lofts will be developed. It would definitely enhance the appearance of that area. Some midrise buildings would even be okay.
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The full service grocery store is a nice touch since Schmucks likes to close all their other stores on the northside. The basic fact is, the BD still hasn't broken ground and until it is finished we have no idea what kind of impact this could have on the near north side. But no matter, I think we're headin in the right direction.
- 1,768
Hello all,
First time submitter, all time STL lover.
Just wanted to join the fray you all have started here.
1. People keep saying that the BD may be or is too isolated from the CBD. First of all, I have read that Pinnacle is including a pedestrian bridge/connector to go over I-70 between it's complex and that little green space across form the dome. THat connects the dome, Laclede's Landing, and the BD. Isolated? It takes a five to ten minute walk from anywhere in downtown toget to anywhere in downtown! Were not walking form Queens to Manhattan...I know residents on Wash Ave. that aren't afraid of a little walk, as most St. Louisans are,
and most out of towners I find at the Admiral or the bar are dying for more stuff to do. People not raised with St. Louis' hatred of walking (or is it love of their cars?) don't find it a big deal to walk a few blocks. So this "All the way around the Dome" talk is ridiculous. You wouldn't walk seven hundred feet for the Bottle District? 
2. As far as 11th and Locust goes-that's prime CBD real estate, and any rebound in the office market makes it worth millions-probably close to ten or so. I figure any redevelopment will be an office building/tower and I bet the owners of those lots are gripping real tight, like Larry Deutsch did on Wash Ave.
3. Dierbergs took Schnucks to court on a monopoly charge. Because they ruled in Dierberg's favor, Schnucks had to sell and closee a certain amount of stores. So they chose the lesser performers, as any sane business person would do. Those, unfortunately happened to serve the city. I Blame Dierbergs though, because Shnucks was strong enough to support stores there, while Dierbergs forced them out, but were unable or unwilling to fill the void. But I digress.
4. Deb-you are a pessimist. I know this because you start so many posts, "I don't want you all to think I'm a pessimist, but..."
This forum looks like a great place to talk about the future of St. Louis. I glad to see many other enthusiasts out there.
Arch City-is there a website for Baron's C. Lake Project? I was wondering where you scored the renderings?
First time submitter, all time STL lover.
Just wanted to join the fray you all have started here.
1. People keep saying that the BD may be or is too isolated from the CBD. First of all, I have read that Pinnacle is including a pedestrian bridge/connector to go over I-70 between it's complex and that little green space across form the dome. THat connects the dome, Laclede's Landing, and the BD. Isolated? It takes a five to ten minute walk from anywhere in downtown toget to anywhere in downtown! Were not walking form Queens to Manhattan...I know residents on Wash Ave. that aren't afraid of a little walk, as most St. Louisans are,
and most out of towners I find at the Admiral or the bar are dying for more stuff to do. People not raised with St. Louis' hatred of walking (or is it love of their cars?) don't find it a big deal to walk a few blocks. So this "All the way around the Dome" talk is ridiculous. You wouldn't walk seven hundred feet for the Bottle District? 2. As far as 11th and Locust goes-that's prime CBD real estate, and any rebound in the office market makes it worth millions-probably close to ten or so. I figure any redevelopment will be an office building/tower and I bet the owners of those lots are gripping real tight, like Larry Deutsch did on Wash Ave.
3. Dierbergs took Schnucks to court on a monopoly charge. Because they ruled in Dierberg's favor, Schnucks had to sell and closee a certain amount of stores. So they chose the lesser performers, as any sane business person would do. Those, unfortunately happened to serve the city. I Blame Dierbergs though, because Shnucks was strong enough to support stores there, while Dierbergs forced them out, but were unable or unwilling to fill the void. But I digress.
4. Deb-you are a pessimist. I know this because you start so many posts, "I don't want you all to think I'm a pessimist, but..."
This forum looks like a great place to talk about the future of St. Louis. I glad to see many other enthusiasts out there.
Arch City-is there a website for Baron's C. Lake Project? I was wondering where you scored the renderings?
Right On!!!!
First of all, I must admit that I was skeptical about the Bottle District's design, more than its location. I can never accept the idea of closing streets to traffic, especially the street grid in the middle of a city. This is typical of St. Louis. People will drive to the edges of the BD, walk through, and get in their cars and leave again. Giving a section of the city a defined boundary, as this looks, could be more harmful to the surrounding areas. The District will be filled with pedestrians, but the surrounding areas will be filled with vehicular traffic, specifically to the north and west (and this is St. Louis, so the South also). Another complaint is that projects like this tend to look dated after a couple years. It's a giant building blitz in a very small area. People will see it a few times, go to the theme restaurants, then get tired of it. Hopefully it does attract downtown business and not just suburban visitors, but we will have to wait and see.
Great
Now I sound like the pessimist..... Who says we grab a bunch of shovels and dig a tunnel for I-70? That would make me happy....Anyone? 
BTW, wayofthearch, love your signature
First of all, I must admit that I was skeptical about the Bottle District's design, more than its location. I can never accept the idea of closing streets to traffic, especially the street grid in the middle of a city. This is typical of St. Louis. People will drive to the edges of the BD, walk through, and get in their cars and leave again. Giving a section of the city a defined boundary, as this looks, could be more harmful to the surrounding areas. The District will be filled with pedestrians, but the surrounding areas will be filled with vehicular traffic, specifically to the north and west (and this is St. Louis, so the South also). Another complaint is that projects like this tend to look dated after a couple years. It's a giant building blitz in a very small area. People will see it a few times, go to the theme restaurants, then get tired of it. Hopefully it does attract downtown business and not just suburban visitors, but we will have to wait and see.
Great
Now I sound like the pessimist..... Who says we grab a bunch of shovels and dig a tunnel for I-70? That would make me happy....Anyone? BTW, wayofthearch, love your signature
I think most of us can agree that we don't like the idea of closed streets to car traffic. St. Louis needs to look at State Street in Chicago. That was once open to only buses, but after a loss in business, they opened it back up to cars, and business improved. Driving through the Bottle District adds to an already animated scene, and advertises to the drivers what is in the District.
The website for Chouteau's lake is at http://www.chouteaulake.com/. The renderings that archcity posted are from HOK Planning Group, which I am unsure of the website at this time, but will look up later.
Never mind, I had the website in my favorite places.
http://www.hokplanninggroup.com/project ... sort=Alpha
http://www.hokplanninggroup.com/project ... sort=Alpha
- 10K
4. Deb-you are a pessimist. I know this because you start so many posts, "I don't want you all to think I'm a pessimist, but..."
That's a laugh. Most of us on this board go way back, posting on other various web sites, and any one of them will tell you that I am far from being a pessimist. Just because I'm not 100% sold on one particular development does not make me a pessimist. I'm as big of a supporter of the city of St. Louis as anyone.
You hardly know me.
I've been posting with Debaliviere on other forums for over 2 years, since September of 2002, when he joined Skyscraperpage forum. I can attest to the fact that he is not a pessemist, he is just as overly optimistic as the rest of us.
- 1,768
Deb-Sorry, nothing personal, and I was referring to your opinion of the BD and not in general. I have read many of your other postings and agree that you do engage the positive. Again, I apologize and hope I didn't start off on the wrong foot.
I agree that having the district turned inward is shortsighted, but as far as closing the streets to traffic, I feel that could be beneficial. We are trying to encourage a walking environment...and I think we all agree we have enough parking garages nearby for people to use, as well as those planned underground. I don't know if you're familiar with these sort of districts, but I was recently in Anaheim and at a similar enclave called The Orange Block, and it was a great place. Street level retail, restaurants, a micro-brewery, a movie theatre, and a Dave and Busters...it was pretty sweet.
I agree that having the district turned inward is shortsighted, but as far as closing the streets to traffic, I feel that could be beneficial. We are trying to encourage a walking environment...and I think we all agree we have enough parking garages nearby for people to use, as well as those planned underground. I don't know if you're familiar with these sort of districts, but I was recently in Anaheim and at a similar enclave called The Orange Block, and it was a great place. Street level retail, restaurants, a micro-brewery, a movie theatre, and a Dave and Busters...it was pretty sweet.
urbz wrote: Who says we grab a bunch of shovels and dig a tunnel for I-70? That would make me happy....Anyone?
BTW, wayofthearch, love your signature
^Thanks!
And I agree...whatever happened to The Lid?
DeBaliviere is a city optimist. To see him express reservations about the Bottle District have thrown me for a loop because most of the time he has favorable outlooks about projects in the city.
Nonetheless, I think we all have expressed reservations about a particular development in the city at one time or another.
TheWayoftheArch, thanks for pointing out The Orange Block. I will check it out. I've heard of it. And doesn't Oakland, Calif. have a similar district in its downtown? And won't BD be kind of like Newport in Cincy (Kentucky)?
I've only been through Cincy.
Nonetheless, I think we all have expressed reservations about a particular development in the city at one time or another.
TheWayoftheArch, thanks for pointing out The Orange Block. I will check it out. I've heard of it. And doesn't Oakland, Calif. have a similar district in its downtown? And won't BD be kind of like Newport in Cincy (Kentucky)?
I've only been through Cincy.
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Its ok to have reservations about projects in the city. I'm not going to blindly support everything developers propose, because not all developers know whats best for the city. I support this project, but the issue with the streets bugs me. Ped only streets aren't always successful and they don't always blend well into the existing urban fabric. There's nothing wrong with being a sort of a pessimist because it can make you more objective.
While I share the concerns of DeBaliviere, I am optimistic about this project for one reason and one reason alone--- Joe Edwards' involvement. He is one of the few urban developers who gets it. He knows which combination of elements will complement one another and how to fit it into an existing context.
I do agree that I'd rather see a Bottle District-type area emerge in buildings that already exist-- maybe in the underutilized corridor between the Washington Avenue loft/garment district and Midtown/Grand Center. You know those east-west streets like Washington, Locust and Olive, etc. That would be cool. Look at the foreground of this pic, just aching for redevelopment:
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The infrastructure is already there. Rehab those buildings and build new on the countless vacant lots that riddle the area.
I'm all about new attractions downtown, but I'm not too excited about the go-kart racing facility. We have enough magnets downtown to attract hoosiers with big hair, we don't need another one (cheap shot, I know).
I do agree that I'd rather see a Bottle District-type area emerge in buildings that already exist-- maybe in the underutilized corridor between the Washington Avenue loft/garment district and Midtown/Grand Center. You know those east-west streets like Washington, Locust and Olive, etc. That would be cool. Look at the foreground of this pic, just aching for redevelopment:
The infrastructure is already there. Rehab those buildings and build new on the countless vacant lots that riddle the area.
I'm all about new attractions downtown, but I'm not too excited about the go-kart racing facility. We have enough magnets downtown to attract hoosiers with big hair, we don't need another one (cheap shot, I know).
- 10K
Deb-Sorry, nothing personal, and I was referring to your opinion of the BD and not in general. I have read many of your other postings and agree that you do engage the positive. Again, I apologize and hope I didn't start off on the wrong foot.
No worries!
I just stumbled across the message board what a great forum for info.
I purchased a townhome behind Columbus Square (Castle Townhomes) last year and have been excited about the new developements coming to this area, Cochran gardens razing especially. I think this could be a great place to live with St Josephs Church across the street, Henry School, walking distance to LL and the Arch. My main concern though is the area a couple of blocks north, the Vacant Schnucks building and the Greyhound station which needs major, major improvements. Hopefully with the developement that are in the works someone will address these issues.
I purchased a townhome behind Columbus Square (Castle Townhomes) last year and have been excited about the new developements coming to this area, Cochran gardens razing especially. I think this could be a great place to live with St Josephs Church across the street, Henry School, walking distance to LL and the Arch. My main concern though is the area a couple of blocks north, the Vacant Schnucks building and the Greyhound station which needs major, major improvements. Hopefully with the developement that are in the works someone will address these issues.
- 1,768
Arch City wrote:
He also told me that two new residential towers (100 units each) will rise in the district instead of one tower. He estimated that the towers will between 14-15 stories each. No renderings were available.
This is an interesting move. It doesn't change the number of units from the original plan. It had been one tower with 200+ and then the sixty lofts in the old McGuire building. You would think it would cost more for bricks and mortar with two buildings.
Just had an epiphany.
They were looking for outside developers to do the tower, and probably felt that by breaking it into two smaller projects it wouldn't be such a huge liability to take on...Sorta sorted that one out on my own.
Anonymous wrote:
I'm all about new attractions downtown, but I'm not too excited about the go-kart racing facility. We have enough magnets downtown to attract hoosiers with big hair, we don't need another one (cheap shot, I know).
If you check out F-1 Boston's website you'll see that this sort of facility won't have the hoosier appeal. They market to corporations and other groups for conferences, team building and other stuff. My brother has been to a similar track in Palm Springs and said it was like $25 to drive one session. That's an expensive outing for the hoosiers I know. Sure, we may have some mullets down there, but only in summer while the Cards are playing! Hoosiers hate the cold...can't wear the tank top!
Oh, yeah...if you're REALLY worried about hoosiers coming DT you should start protesting the Cabo-Wabo Cantina...Legions of Sammy Haggar fans streaming into the city...yikes!
And just because I've got hoosiers and Music on my brain, did anybody else want to choke whatever guiding force had nothing but bad country nobodys play during the world series? Way to sell the new STL, people...The entire country thinks we're fly-over country hicks. We follow Aerosmith with the girl that sings "Redneck woman"...AAARRRGHHH!
OK I've really gone way off the path...
- 10K
WKnDACity, how do you like living in the Columbus Square neighborhood? I've always liked those townhouses, especially the ones facing the plaza in front of the church.
Are there any plans to build new housing on the vacant lots just north of your current digs?
Are there any plans to build new housing on the vacant lots just north of your current digs?
DeBaliviere wrote:WKnDACity, how do you like living in the Columbus Square neighborhood? I've always liked those townhouses, especially the ones facing the plaza in front of the church.
Are there any plans to build new housing on the vacant lots just north of your current digs?
Don't know, I wish they would, but with the housing being built after the Cochran is torn down hopefully they will. My townhome is on the other side, there is one vacant lot across the street where the single family homes are but from what I can tell no plans in the near future to build a home on that site. The church is nice especially during spring and summer evenings just to sit in the court yard it can be very peaceful almost spiritual to just sit and stare at the old church.
Interesting rendering - where did you find it? Nice to see new high-rise condo development slated for this area. There is an article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch today about how almost all the large buildings have been converted downtown, and developers will need to build in-fill new construction to meet demand and further encourage empty-nesters to move downtown.