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PostFeb 19, 2024#576

gary kreie wrote: ↑
Feb 18, 2024
Is it OK yet to consider moving it back to Union Station with back in pull out like the Denver Union Station?  Why is it OK for Denver but not St Louis?  I keep forgetting.
This adds about an extra hour to travel times. Not only does the train have to back into the station (which requires much lower speed in case of brake failure e.g. how much slower MetroLink trains pull into the Airport station vs other stations) but the train has to turn around again somewhere else to resume the correct direction.

And the Grand Hall of Union Station is already a busy hotel lobby and event space owned by a private company. They're not going to allow train passengers to wait there or even travel through it. Even then, it would be another 5 minute convoluted walk to the nearest track on the SW corner of the property. We're not going to undo 44 years of renovations at Union Station for an inferior station arrangement.

Frankly, it's not a great arrangement in Denver either but they see 2 intercity trains per day. St. Louis has 6 thru travel trains and 3 terminating trains. While the 45 minute dwell for River Runners continuing to Lincoln Service isn't the best use of a thru station, ideally on time performance could be improved in the future and this dwell could be greatly reduced. The current pull thru layout of the platforms allows greater flexibility in how those 3 terminating trains are turned around.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#577

Other than $100s of millions needed to make it into a train station again, the other big reason is that it would probably cost $350-$500m to acquire the asset from LHM (hotel, restaurants, wheel, office, parking lots, etc).   The site generates $100,000,000 a year and growing in revenue.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#578

Personally i don't think it needs to back in to be incorporated into Union Station.  The old Wherenberg space or demo/rebuild would make a fine train station location and would still leaverage the Union Station atmosphere.  As i understand it the station wasn't built there simply because of complexity of working with private ownership. of union station. Still a problem of course.

I'm also on record as preferring moving the station to ESTL which gets consistent hate from several posters.  My reasoning there is its easer to have a develop as a mini-hub that moves traffic from Chicago routes to southern and eastern destinations.  My view is as long as its adjacent metro link and within a handful of stops of downtown its not really necessary to be IN downtown.  Locating station to ESTL would theoretically be a part of a major push to redevelop the ESTL riverfront/casino district.

To me both of these ideas are preferable to the current location which just feels shoehorned in.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#579

STLEnginerd wrote:Personally i don't think it needs to back in to be incorporated into Union Station.  The old Wherenberg space or demo/rebuild would make a fine train station location and would still leaverage the Union Station atmosphere.  As i understand it the station wasn't built there simply because of complexity of working with private ownership. of union station. Still a problem of course.

I'm also on record as preferring moving the station to ESTL which gets consistent hate from several posters.  My reasoning there is its easer to have a develop as a mini-hub that moves traffic from Chicago routes to southern and eastern destinations.  My view is as long as its adjacent metro link and within a handful of stops of downtown its not really necessary to be IN downtown.  Locating station to ESTL would theoretically be a part of a major push to redevelop the ESTL riverfront/casino district.

To me both of these ideas are preferable to the current location which just feels shoehorned in.
Totally aligned on your logic on Union Station.

Moving the transit center out of Downtown is baffling to me.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#580

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑
Feb 19, 2024
STLEnginerd wrote:Personally i don't think it needs to back in to be incorporated into Union Station.  The old Wherenberg space or demo/rebuild would make a fine train station location and would still leaverage the Union Station atmosphere.  As i understand it the station wasn't built there simply because of complexity of working with private ownership. of union station. Still a problem of course.

I'm also on record as preferring moving the station to ESTL which gets consistent hate from several posters.  My reasoning there is its easer to have a develop as a mini-hub that moves traffic from Chicago routes to southern and eastern destinations.  My view is as long as its adjacent metro link and within a handful of stops of downtown its not really necessary to be IN downtown.  Locating station to ESTL would theoretically be a part of a major push to redevelop the ESTL riverfront/casino district.

To me both of these ideas are preferable to the current location which just feels shoehorned in.
Totally aligned on your logic on Union Station.

Moving the transit center out of Downtown is baffling to me.
The reasoning is mostly that downtown is difficult to shoehorn a big transit station into.  I want our Amtrack hub to rival Chicago for connections. That can't be done at the current station and it will never happen at Union Station. ESTL has more space for more routes to converge at similar times.  Also ESTL needs some love.  A thriving ESTL would have an outsized impact on downtown and I think placing core infrastructure on the near eastside could be part of a revitalization strategy.  Also Politically speaking Illinois supports most of the transit routes while Missouri regularly underfunds transit so putting the station in Illinois makes some political sense.
Its probably pipe dream sort of stuff, but if something along the lines of the Amazon HQ concept could be realized i see no negatives to having the downtown Amtrak station at its core and some clear benefits.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#581

I have been listening to the Illinois High Speed Rail commission meeting. There is definitely willingness to moving/adding a stop in East St. Louis but it’s all very aspirational right now.

My prediction based on the meetings, Illinois will have to invite Brightline to the table to bid on construction and operation. In that case Brightline, who is very motivated by real estate development, would likely get to choose between a new Downtown St. Louis station or an East St. Louis project.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#582

I think commenters here grossly overestimate how hard it would be to return Amtrak to St. Louis Union Station.  For 12 days in December, Polar Express runs 3 trains per day from the Union Station shed track.  4:30, 6, and 7:30.  

St. Louis has 6 Amtrak stops spread out through the day.  Denver has 2 Amtrak train stops.  But Denver also has 2 stops 3 days per week to Winter Park ski area in the winter.  And Rocky Mountaineer luxury excursion company runs trains from the Denver Union Station to Moab Colorado.  

The Denver station also has a hotel and multiple restaurants.   I'd guess the daily pedestrian traffic through the Denver Station is around triple that of St. Louis Union station currently, even though Denver Union station is half the size of the St. Louis Union Station.  In short, the obstacles for returning 6 stops to the existing Union Station shed track seem easily surmountable.  
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PostFeb 19, 2024#583

Yeah, I think most people think it would be cool to see the trains come back to union station.  I also don't think its about buying the property from LHM but leasing / partnering on that small part of the shed you might need.  As someone who remembers the double wide, I think the current station needs a reno, not an implosion. 
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PostFeb 19, 2024#584

The issue is having it be convenient in terms of operations where trains can go in and out fast and also the ability to expand. Thinking both more Amtrak trains at a time and if Regional Rail service starts up there is space for everyone.
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PostFeb 19, 2024#585

gary kreie wrote: ↑
Feb 19, 2024
I think commenters here grossly overestimate how hard it would be to return Amtrak to St. Louis Union Station.  For 12 days in December, Polar Express runs 3 trains per day from the Union Station shed track.  4:30, 6, and 7:30.  

St. Louis has 6 Amtrak stops spread out through the day.  Denver has 2 Amtrak train stops.  But Denver also has 2 stops 3 days per week to Winter Park ski area in the winter.  And Rocky Mountaineer luxury excursion company runs trains from the Denver Union Station to Moab Colorado.  

The Denver station also has a hotel and multiple restaurants.   I'd guess the daily pedestrian traffic through the Denver Station is around triple that of St. Louis Union station currently, even though Denver Union station is half the size of the St. Louis Union Station.  In short, the obstacles for returning 6 stops to the existing Union Station shed track seem easily surmountable.  
The station and shed are spoken for.  The complication is in disrupting the current user.  Back in service won't happen and probably shouldn't happen.  A through line south of the shed COULD happen, though it has a few big obstacles.  The primary one being build cost vs. sunk cost into current mostly functional location and ultimately has similar topline capacity limitations to the current site.

In short this is only worth talking about if the current site is functionally obsolete which unless we are significantly expanding service, it is not.
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PostFeb 20, 2024#586

The "theme park" LHM is planning might get in the way too. There is simply no reason to repurpose Union Station away from its current high use.

Yes, the Gateway Station needs to be renovated and potentially upgraded with in the event of expanded service. The lots across from the station also need to be developed, but Blues fans need their parking so I'm sure that won't happen anytime soon
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PostFeb 23, 2025#587

I created a concept of what a future expanded Gateway Transit Center could look like that incorporates the existing facility while improving it's visual presence.  By extending to the west of the current main entrance beneath the freeway viaduct, a larger and grander waiting/ticketing hall could create a more inviting experience compared to the diminished and unkept first impression the current facility creates. This new main entrance hall would act as a facade that screens visuals of the freeway from a pedestrian plaza that could replace 15th Street, which could be lined with new development and park space. An additional platform and potential train shed or shelters along the platforms could accommodate future increased service and a future electrified high speed rail terminal. A continuous shelter extending over the Civic Center bus platforms and across the MetroLink Station to the Bus and Amtrak transit center would create a more comfortable and seamless transition between modes.

I also imagined what the surrounding area could look like if densified and developed to create a transit oriented district of mixed use and residential buildings between Union Station, Enterprise Center, a potential redevelopment of the Municipal Courts Building, City Hall, and the existing transit hubs. A road diet and expanded pedestrian corridor along Clark Ave along with a pedestrian bridge across the MetroLink tracks could connect all of these destinations and create a more walkable experience. A bikeway could spur off of the future Brickline Greenway to increase access to transit to those on bikes as well. 

With multiple proposed developments as of late reinvigorating a future vision of downtown, an investment in this crucial and underutilized pocket of downtown at the epicenter of downtown's major attractions would go a long way I think!
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PostFeb 23, 2025#588

kg2024 wrote: ↑
Feb 23, 2025
I created a concept of what a future expanded Gateway Transit Center could look like that incorporates the existing facility while improving it's visual presence.  By extending to the west of the current main entrance beneath the freeway viaduct, a larger and grander waiting/ticketing hall could create a more inviting experience compared to the diminished and unkept first impression the current facility creates. This new main entrance hall would act as a facade that screens visuals of the freeway from a pedestrian plaza that could replace 15th Street, which could be lined with new development and park space. An additional platform and potential train shed or shelters along the platforms could accommodate future increased service and a future electrified high speed rail terminal. A continuous shelter extending over the Civic Center bus platforms and across the MetroLink Station to the Bus and Amtrak transit center would create a more comfortable and seamless transition between modes.

I also imagined what the surrounding area could look like if densified and developed to create a transit oriented district of mixed use and residential buildings between Union Station, Enterprise Center, a potential redevelopment of the Municipal Courts Building, City Hall, and the existing transit hubs. A road diet and expanded pedestrian corridor along Clark Ave along with a pedestrian bridge across the MetroLink tracks could connect all of these destinations and create a more walkable experience. A bikeway could spur off of the future Brickline Greenway to increase access to transit to those on bikes as well. 

With multiple proposed developments as of late reinvigorating a future vision of downtown, an investment in this crucial and underutilized pocket of downtown at the epicenter of downtown's major attractions would go a long way I think!
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Good work and concept.

I think the removal of the 14th street westbound ramp would really improve and open up what we can do with the transit centers and parcels surrounding those stations. Because the (1) ramp’s poor design, (2) the amount of accidents because of it and (3) it’s low need considering a much more functional westbound ramp at 22nd, I think there could be a successful campaign to do so by the city with the state.
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PostFeb 24, 2025#589

That would be a great improvement, Especially in having a better connection experience between modes of transport. I was thinking is there a way to improve pedestrian access to the transit center from the south across the railroad tracks?

Would make sense to design it in a way to be HSR ready. Picture it would be a good straight shot to the river to build HSR tracks. It would be ideal on any river crossing is to have it as a dedicated passenger rail bridge which will reduce congestion and increase freight capacity.

How much ability is there for extra rail platforms? This would be to accommodate any future Amtrak routes and to serve as a hub for any future regional rail network covering the metro area since there are a few promising routes for that.
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PostFeb 24, 2025#590

Great design!

Just an idea I've had in the past. You can create two connections to bikeways. See below. If the current connection you have uses the Bi-State right-of-way, gradually lower the pathway to go under 16th street, continue east in bi-state ROW then lift gradually to 18th. With a little partnership of Union Station ownership, it's a straight line to the 20th Street bikeway. Since you're already including a pedestrian bridge towards enterprise, use that as the bike connection to 16th.

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PostFeb 24, 2025#591

kg2024 wrote:I created a concept of what a future expanded Gateway Transit Center could look like that incorporates the existing facility while improving it's visual presence.  By extending to the west of the current main entrance beneath the freeway viaduct, a larger and grander waiting/ticketing hall could create a more inviting experience compared to the diminished and unkept first impression the current facility creates. This new main entrance hall would act as a facade that screens visuals of the freeway from a pedestrian plaza that could replace 15th Street, which could be lined with new development and park space. An additional platform and potential train shed or shelters along the platforms could accommodate future increased service and a future electrified high speed rail terminal. A continuous shelter extending over the Civic Center bus platforms and across the MetroLink Station to the Bus and Amtrak transit center would create a more comfortable and seamless transition between modes.

I also imagined what the surrounding area could look like if densified and developed to create a transit oriented district of mixed use and residential buildings between Union Station, Enterprise Center, a potential redevelopment of the Municipal Courts Building, City Hall, and the existing transit hubs. A road diet and expanded pedestrian corridor along Clark Ave along with a pedestrian bridge across the MetroLink tracks could connect all of these destinations and create a more walkable experience. A bikeway could spur off of the future Brickline Greenway to increase access to transit to those on bikes as well. 

With multiple proposed developments as of late reinvigorating a future vision of downtown, an investment in this crucial and underutilized pocket of downtown at the epicenter of downtown's major attractions would go a long way I think!
gatewaytransitcenterconcept.pngGateway Transportation Center Section.pngGateway Center.png
It’s amazing what participants of this forum can envision versus the products we actually receive. Just to piggyback off of this. Since the metro link tracks from Union Station to Civic Center are already below grade would it be possible to cover and build infrastructure over the tracks. That along with your additional upgrades would make Clark viable on both sides of the corridor.


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PostFeb 24, 2025#592

In real life, money is required to make anything happen.
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PostFeb 24, 2025#593

A motivated city with appropriate ownership of GTC (not comptroller’s office) would coordinate a land deal with USPS, release a development RFP which could include a TIF, TID/CID to bring private $ into the station area.
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PostFeb 24, 2025#594

We have too many surface lots and not enough demand to build over tracks the way NYC and other megalopolis' do.  Supply and demand and scarcity of real estate need to align to start covering tracks. 

Like the idea though. 
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PostFeb 25, 2025#595

Divert a couple of tracks north toward Clark and build a shed over them just like Union Station. Cap the sunken part of the Metrolink line south of Clark. Build the terminal over the capped metro tracks. Front door would be at the Clark/14th. 404 S. 16st Parking lot becomes the bus terminal. You could easily continue to use the existing facility with ease during construction.

Probably a stupid question but could an amtrak train operate on a Metrolink track? Asking purely from a weight/track gauge perspective. I understand there would be other barriers
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PostFeb 25, 2025#596

Gauge is the same. The wires are prob a problem for the tall superliners.
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PostFeb 25, 2025#597

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑
Feb 25, 2025
Probably a stupid question but could an amtrak train operate on a Metrolink track? Asking purely from a weight/track gauge perspective. I understand there would be other barriers
As you say, there are other safety and regulatory issues that would prevent it, but if you ignore the wire, some of them might work and others most likely would not. The curves between Union Station and Civic Center are pretty tight. You can see that they're visibly tighter than the curve to get into the 8th/Washington/Eads tunnel. I doubt very much that Amtrak equipment would be able to make those curves. The stuff through Forst Park, sure, they'd be fine on that most likely, though the rail may not be very heavy anymore. The bridge over Vandeventer is new and isn't designed to support heavy rail equipment, so that'd be off limits as well. And yes, the catenary is probably mostly way too low to provide safe separation from Superliners, even if they'd technically clear stuff. (Probably best not to find the spark gap and electrify the car body. Higher voltages like that can get kind of frisky as I understand it, even if you don't "touch" things.)

Anyway, it's not a terrible question. It was a real passenger right of way at one time. It never carried true bi-level equipment, but the Wabash absolutely used dome cars on that line. That said, you couldn't do it anymore for the reasons above, even if Metrolink's equipment and rules allowed it. (Which of course they do not.) Yeah, it's four foot eight and a half between rails, but the loading gage is dramatically different, and nothing Metrolink built would be up to old heavy-rail weight or dimensional standards. They just don't have a reason to build to that. (And they have a pretty compelling reason not to.)
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PostFeb 25, 2025#598

Thanks!
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PostMar 17, 2025#599

jshank83 wrote: ↑
Mar 17, 2025
Final 2024 numbers for midamerica

303,919 passengers
Up 11,222 (3.83%) from 2023

It is there 3rd largest year on record (2022, 2021)
2025 projects to be their best year by a wide margin.
Still hasn't surpassed Amtrak at the Gateway Transportation Center, 321,780 in 3023. Then there's Greyhound too. It'd be nice if it got even 1/10 the investment.
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PostMar 18, 2025#600

quincunx wrote: ↑
Mar 17, 2025
jshank83 wrote: ↑
Mar 17, 2025
Final 2024 numbers for midamerica

303,919 passengers
Up 11,222 (3.83%) from 2023

It is there 3rd largest year on record (2022, 2021)
2025 projects to be their best year by a wide margin.
Still hasn't surpassed Amtrak at the Gateway Transportation Center, 321,780 in 3023. Then there's Greyhound too. It'd be nice if it got even 1/10 the investment.
Great.

Scott.
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