Tapatalk

Future Development of Lafayette Square

Future Development of Lafayette Square

2,386
Life MemberLife Member
2,386

PostJul 22, 2010#1

I have a few things that I would like to begin a discussion on here, if that is alright with everyone. I searched the first four pages of both South City forums and did not find a thread I thought suitable. If it can be merged, please do so. I am extremely interested to hear from residents of the area, and welcome any and all opinions.

Future Development of Lafayette Square

1 - I have recently been reading materials from the Lafayette neighborhood association's website, and came across the proposed guidelines for the development of the former Praxair facility. I must say I think it is extremely poorly put together and if implemented as is, would lead the entire area in a horrible direction. My main points of contention:

A - It entertains the idea of surface parking lots. This is a horrible precedent to set, as this is a fresh 6 acre parcel of land that should be developed up to the surrounding neighborhood with the greatest density possible. There is absolutely nothing on the site. Future development should encorporate a below grade parking facility to accomodate any future retail, and the rest should be comprised of on street parking.

B - Specifies single family residences on land parcels that match the surrounding streets. This basically eliminates any possible condo/building development on the site, and in my opinion, significantly bars an extremely large amount of dynamic development that could possibly be entertained for the area. Would/should this type of development in the neighborhood be considered?

C - Calls for a minimum of TWO additional parks to be included in any future development. There is a park anchoring the middle of the neighborhood less than two blocks away. This seems very uncalled for, and significantly limits the level of density that could be introduced in this development.

2 - The current guidelines for structures in the area basically limit anything over four stories, and this height is allowed only on the portion of land bordering Chouteau (my apologies if this is spelled incorrectly throughout my post). What are thoughts on this limit, and should/would the area consider allowing changes to this opdinance?

3 - Obviously the entire street-grid should be reinstated throughout neighborhood as much as possible in all future developments. As far as the existing Northern border of the neighborhood is concerned, would a boulevard through the middle of Chouteau with large trees, and expansion of the sidewalks along this stretch of street soften the surrounding area to allow for real development all the way to Chouteau? I believe that this would be a tremendous opportunity to significantly improve the entire neighborhood, and should be considered of high importance to the city.

4 - With the existence of loft apartments/condos already in the Mississippi Walk Development (I believe), would a significant residential project incorporating condos be welcome/supported by the neighborhood?

Thank you for your comments, I will start here for now.

PostJul 22, 2010#2

Also, the main purpose of this discussion, as I should have stated intially, is to determine the best way possible to continue developing the neighborhood into the future, while maintaining the historical intergrity of the neighborhood and its residents. Times change, and inevitably people are going to start thinking bigger for the city of StL (I already am). It is important that development that is consistant for the needs and demands of today is allowed to happen alongside our amazing historical past, otherwise we risk strangling the future of the city. A balance needs to be found that is amicable to both, and once we can accomplish this, I believe the city will take great strides.

11K
Life MemberLife Member
11K

PostJul 22, 2010#3

I understand the neighborhood's wish to control development and I support their efforts surrounding the park and on the streets surrounding that clearly have a strong historic sense of place. However, Chouteau should really be opened up for more dense, varied development. Larger buildings on Chouteau would do nothing to take away from the neighborhood, other than possibly let a few people without the income to purchase a very large home move in. The borders of the Lafayette Square neighborhood are awful and I'm not saying that any development is better than no development, but if they're waiting for single-family homes to fill the site then they're going to be waiting a long time indeed.

407
Full MemberFull Member
407

PostJul 22, 2010#4

The Lafayette Square borders are pretty questionable. The southern and western edges are not too bad, but the east is horrible and the north along Chouteau is 50/50. I agree about the issues with the Praixar site, but Green Street Properties, whose Chouteau's Landing project across the street on Chouteau is currently underway, has the site listed for sale on their website: http://www.greenstreetstl.com/show.cfm?id=42

There isn't even an owner looking for a project right now, let alone a developer and funding. Not saying that the plans should not be a concern right now, but they don't mean a lot right now.

557
Senior MemberSenior Member
557

PostJul 22, 2010#5

Lafayette Square residents are concerned with:

1. Stopping traffic from their neighborhood
2. Stopping "undesirables" from coming to the neighborhood
3. Preserving property values.

Urbanism, designing stuff for the masses, etc., are not in the cards. While it's a very nice area, I find it incredibly backward and suburban focused. There were a lot of discussions on closing more streets to "limit through traffic."

I say this as a 2 year resident of the square, and someone eager to find a new neighborhood.

11K
Life MemberLife Member
11K

PostJul 22, 2010#6

^ I've heard similar perspectives from current residents, but how does that jive with all the new multi-story construction on Park? I'm guessing residents were in favor of that and other developments. Maybe they're just saying "no more." Oh, and if you're a resident of Lafayette Square and I've driven down your street and you don't live on Park then it's likely only because I couldn't figure out how the hell to get where I was going because of all the blocked-off streets. Open them up!!!!

16
New MemberNew Member
16

PostJul 22, 2010#7

jmstokes wrote:Lafayette Square residents are concerned with:

1. Stopping traffic from their neighborhood
2. Stopping "undesirables" from coming to the neighborhood
3. Preserving property values.

Urbanism, designing stuff for the masses, etc., are not in the cards. While it's a very nice area, I find it incredibly backward and suburban focused. There were a lot of discussions on closing more streets to "limit through traffic."

I say this as a 2 year resident of the square, and someone eager to find a new neighborhood.
Not to take away from the main point of this thread but I'm interested to know more about what your saying here jmstokes. As someone who currently lives away from STL and is looking to potentially come back to an urban neighborhood in STL, Lafayette Square would naturally be on my short list. Your a 2 year resident of the square so I'd certainly like to hear your input...

I believe the three concerns you mentioned above are very valid concerns and on the whole don't see any problems with them, specifically safety and preserving property value... would have to learn more about the closing streets/traffic issues though...

You said "urbanism" is not in the cards? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean but from my point of view Lafayette Square could be a model of urban success for Downtown. It offers a little bit of everything for a nice urban neighborhood. Rental/starting housing is available along with true historic mansions. Good residential/commercial density, walkable scale with park and numerous restaurants/bars/shops etc.

Lafayette Square represents an established urban neighborhood that helps define one of the many strengths of the city of St. Louis... Historic urban fabric, density, strong neighborhood identity and plenty of good food. If Lafayette Square is "incredibly backward and suburban focused" then please explain why... or some sort of example. (i guess an example would be the original post which assuming true seems very shortsighted)

1,770
Never Logs OffNever Logs Off
1,770

PostJul 22, 2010#8

If they can't even finish Lafayette Walk over on Mississippi, I highly doubt anything will happen with Praxair for a while. Also, subterranean parking in that area might be rather difficult because there is a cave system there with an underground stream that is substantial enough to have provided water for one of the city's largest breweries and beer gardens (replete with fountains) as well as a commercial ice facility. But I do agree with the density and "use" arguments you make. I would love to see three or four-story condo buildings with some ground-floor commercial fronting on Chouteau like there used to be.

11K
Life MemberLife Member
11K

PostJul 22, 2010#9

I don't think Lafayette Square residents realize how much Chouteau serves as the front door to their neighborhood.

2,386
Life MemberLife Member
2,386

PostJul 23, 2010#10

Good points all around. JMSTOKES, I would be very interested to hear your opinions as well. I also currently live away from StL, but I likewise would put this neighborhood on my short-list right off the bat when moving back.

How does Mississippi Walk compare to new construction as a development? Are they mostly open lofts? I am not very familiar with that specific project.

I feel like there is a market that has not been played to in Lafayette Square, in that I think there would be many people who would love to live here provided they could purchase new construction with the modern amenities that are now basically expected. It is a real neighborhood, a 5 minute cab ride from anything in the city, close to public transit, and has character. Historic houses are great, but I feel as though there is an extremely large (and growing) portion of the population that simply will not give up large master closets and in suite bathrooms. I am not saying this is a bad thing at all. I think the city is seriously lacking in inventory for units matching the above description. Any thoughts?

12K
Life MemberLife Member
12K

PostJul 23, 2010#11

Getting in and out of Lafayette Square from the north is extremely frustrating. They really need to open up some of the streets. I can't believe people are talking about MORE closings...this isn't 1979. :evil:

5,721
Life MemberLife Member
5,721

PostJul 23, 2010#12

A gated urban neighborhood?

The flip side is Lafayette Square becomes the urban version of a suburban gated community. In my opinion additional Old Hospital/Georgian Square development can't come quick enough as well as the possiblity of a Sappington Farmers Market. In other words, at this point it might take development on the outskirts to make the community better or least get projects going on the major arterial roads bordering Lafayette Square.

11K
Life MemberLife Member
11K

PostJul 23, 2010#13

newstl2020 wrote:How does Mississippi Walk compare to new construction as a development? Are they mostly open lofts? I am not very familiar with that specific project.

Historic houses are great, but I feel as though there is an extremely large (and growing) portion of the population that simply will not give up large master closets and in suite bathrooms. I am not saying this is a bad thing at all. I think the city is seriously lacking in inventory for units matching the above description. Any thoughts?
Here's a link to a couple places for sale in the Mississippi Walk development: http://www.highrises.com/st-louis/lafayette-walk/

I agree regarding housing diversity. There has been quite a bit of new construction in Lafayette Square, but all high-end stuff (Mississippi Walk being by far the most affordable). Mississippi Place by Gilded Age is another: http://www.gilded-age.com/mississippi.html

125
Junior MemberJunior Member
125

PostJul 23, 2010#14

To add to this discussion, there is also a plan that is apparently close to be finalized that would continue the fence along Truman that currently encloses the Eden Lofts. The plan as I understand would continue the fence South along Truman and end at or near Park.

525
Senior MemberSenior Member
525

PostJul 23, 2010#15

^Maybe The Gate neighborhood could annex Lafayette Square :roll:

557
Senior MemberSenior Member
557

PostJul 23, 2010#16

foodicles wrote:To add to this discussion, there is also a plan that is apparently close to be finalized that would continue the fence along Truman that currently encloses the Eden Lofts. The plan as I understand would continue the fence South along Truman and end at or near Park.
Sadly, this is to keep out people of color, especially those from the affordable housing next to Lafayette Square.

There is a lot of angst in this neighborhood whenever undesirables (especially black) are seen. The email group often contains worries and complains about anyone who "doesn't belong." It's a suburban neighborhood in the middle of the city, in many respects, albeit one with a stellar local community.

10K
AdministratorAdministrator
10K

PostJul 23, 2010#17

"Suburban thinkers" and wealthy urbanites have more in common than you might think.

3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostAug 11, 2010#18

I've been living in Lafayette Square also for a few months. Truman Parkway was built, yes, in order to keep people out from Clinton Peabody. It's not surprising they want to gate off the western edge of Truman. A lot of buildings were demolished for that road which only serves as a barrier as well as Ameren's private highway to the highway. In LS when African American children play in the fountain you can see the stares. It's beautiful but quite insular and disgusting. At least though it's a quick walk to McKinley Heights, Benton Park, Soulard, and (longer) to downtown or Cherokee. We also have good bus access. So when people complain about racism not existing in St. Louis, and it not being a motivation downtown, I would ask them to think again. Lafayette Square is one of the best examples of a neighborhood walling itself off through planning against criminal raiders surrounding the city-state. I don't really understand why though. I've walked across Truman many times at all hours and never ran into problems. Perhaps it's because I am white and they won't mess with me as they know the law will smack down quickly?

6,775
Life MemberLife Member
6,775

PostAug 11, 2010#19

Doug wrote:I've been living in Lafayette Square also for a few months. Truman Parkway was built, yes, in order to keep people out from Clinton Peabody. It's not surprising they want to gate off the western edge of Truman. A lot of buildings were demolished for that road which only serves as a barrier as well as Ameren's private highway to the highway. In LS when African American children play in the fountain you can see the stares. It's beautiful but quite insular and disgusting. At least though it's a quick walk to McKinley Heights, Benton Park, Soulard, and (longer) to downtown or Cherokee. We also have good bus access. So when people complain about racism not existing in St. Louis, and it not being a motivation downtown, I would ask them to think again. Lafayette Square is one of the best examples of a neighborhood walling itself off through planning against criminal raiders surrounding the city-state. I don't really understand why though. I've walked across Truman many times at all hours and never ran into problems. Perhaps it's because I am white and they won't mess with me as they know the law will smack down quickly?
Or they know that you're down with them and understand their issues, unlike the rest of white society.

5,721
Life MemberLife Member
5,721

PostAug 12, 2010#20

Can't help but think that a Sappington Market coming into existence would help tie some communities together. I think every neighborhood desires a full service supermarket. Plus, you tend to get over yourself when the munchies are calling, freezer doesn't have any ice cream, you need something for the game, or you can buy some veggies to force feed your kids something good for a change.

719
Senior MemberSenior Member
719

PostAug 12, 2010#21

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Doug wrote:I've been living in Lafayette Square also for a few months. Truman Parkway was built, yes, in order to keep people out from Clinton Peabody. It's not surprising they want to gate off the western edge of Truman. A lot of buildings were demolished for that road which only serves as a barrier as well as Ameren's private highway to the highway. In LS when African American children play in the fountain you can see the stares. It's beautiful but quite insular and disgusting. At least though it's a quick walk to McKinley Heights, Benton Park, Soulard, and (longer) to downtown or Cherokee. We also have good bus access. So when people complain about racism not existing in St. Louis, and it not being a motivation downtown, I would ask them to think again. Lafayette Square is one of the best examples of a neighborhood walling itself off through planning against criminal raiders surrounding the city-state. I don't really understand why though. I've walked across Truman many times at all hours and never ran into problems. Perhaps it's because I am white and they won't mess with me as they know the law will smack down quickly?
Or they know that you're down with them and understand their issues, unlike the rest of white society.
Doug: fighting racial disparity. TCS: king of one-liners. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostAug 12, 2010#22

I'd be willing to stop with my leftist rants if CS buys me a beer.

719
Senior MemberSenior Member
719

PostAug 12, 2010#23

TCS, do you accept? I volunteer to record this possible historic diplomatic rendez-vous (on neutral grounds of course) with an extensive post and pictures.

2,330
Life MemberLife Member
2,330

PostAug 12, 2010#24

Doug wrote:I'd be willing to stop with my leftist rants if CS buys me a beer.
and illegal immigrants will stop protesting if give them amnesty
and the crime rate will go down if we give them homes and jobs
and poor kids from broken families will perform better if we give them computers

5,433
Super ModeratorSuper Moderator
5,433

PostAug 12, 2010#25

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Doug wrote:I've walked across Truman many times at all hours and never ran into problems. Perhaps it's because I am white and they won't mess with me as they know the law will smack down quickly?
Or they know that you're down with them and understand their issues, unlike the rest of white society.
:lol:

Read more posts (53 remaining)