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PostFeb 04, 2011#26

gone corporate wrote:I think there may be problems with the parking idea:
1. The Zoo just spent so much on the South Lot revamp that I'd doubt they'd want to give that up.
2. Walking the distance from Oakland & Hampton to the Zoo would be a pain in the rear for families with children, as well as for the handicapped. It could project a "prohibitive" image of visiting the Zoo for many potential visitors.

Not critiqueing the ideas as being poor, just unsure how viable they may be.

Meanwhile, the concept of a specialized hospital for animals could be really cool. I'm not sure how profitable those ideas could be, especially considered against other ideas that potentially could be more profitable for development or redevelopment. But ideally, having an off-site, proximate, state-of-the-art veterinary hospital could be an incredible concept to develop. I have no idea what other possible full hospitals exist for animals, if any, but one the size of Forest Park Hospital could be incredible for the whole field. Would the investment / health management group that acquired the hospital consider such a venture? Who knows...

As well, the site could be a great spot to serve for life sciences biotech. We already have wonderful sites set up around the StL area focusing specifically at plant sciences; could this site be viable for various biosciences?

Curious ideas all over this thread, no doubt.
The parking idea is DOA. Has anyone seen the people who go to the zoo? They'd scream bloody murder if they had to walk 3 blocks. Besides, as you said, the Zoo just spent a ton on the new parking lot/south entrance. Absent someone handing them a $20 million check, they ain't tearing it up.

I think if the vet school was such a good idea, we'd probably already have one at WashU or SLU. Mizzou & U of I both have top notch vet schools.

PostFeb 04, 2011#27

ttricamo wrote:Bonus: this place is right across the street from Mike Talayna's Juke Box!
Then it would be perfect for a nursing home!
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PostFeb 04, 2011#28

the central scrutinizer wrote:
ttricamo wrote:Bonus: this place is right across the street from Mike Talayna's Juke Box!
Then it would be perfect for a nursing home!
Which wouldn't even need its own pharmacy. 8)
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PostFeb 04, 2011#29

ttricamo wrote:They need to level it and build some awesome condos. I'm sorry, but this is a prime example of a building, that while it has some historic value, is better left to the demolition experts for the sake of City progress. This is Grade A St. Louis real estate. Look how much of this campus swallows up one of the coolest parts of Dogtown/Clayton.

Of course, as it is privately owned, this is all nothing but an awesome pipe dream.

Bonus: this place is right across the street from Mike Talayna's Juke Box!

I am not so sure that Condos are the best idea considering the area. What would be good is to make this some sort of mixed-use development. Office towers on the corner of Oakland and Hampton and residential in the surrounding area. I would setback the buildings off Oakland and have them front on Clayton Ave and Berthhold. The density should taper as the development transitions from towers to Single-family residential. Then use the surrounding potential development sites to further connect Downtown Dogtown, the Zoo and the Highlands.
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PostFeb 05, 2011#30

RobbyD wrote:Would be a Killer spot for an aquarium...Nestled in a very cool urban neighborhood right across from Forest Park and great highway access...It's not right on a MetroLink stop but could be credibly part of the Forest Park Shuttle Bus...
Again I'd like to point out that a city our size should not be investing in multiple aquariums, and there is already a non-profit aquarium operating out of the City Museum.

Shuttle Schmuttle, you're looking at a good transfer station for the I-64 BRT and the 90 Hampton.

PostFeb 05, 2011#31

the central scrutinizer wrote:
gone corporate wrote:Meanwhile, the concept of a specialized hospital for animals could be really cool. I'm not sure how profitable those ideas could be, especially considered against other ideas that potentially could be more profitable for development or redevelopment. But ideally, having an off-site, proximate, state-of-the-art veterinary hospital could be an incredible concept to develop. I have no idea what other possible full hospitals exist for animals, if any, but one the size of Forest Park Hospital could be incredible for the whole field. Would the investment / health management group that acquired the hospital consider such a venture? Who knows...
I think if the vet school was such a good idea, we'd probably already have one at WashU or SLU. Mizzou & U of I both have top notch vet schools.
I think you're right that Mizzou is a big reason why we don't have a vet or ag school here, but UM Extension is an interesting animal that has become increasingly involved in St. Louis over the past few years. The vet school in Columbia could work through UMSL or SLCC in partnership with the zoo. Mizzou and MS&T both have interesting satellite programs at UMSL and around St. Louis, library science for instance. There's no reason to challenge Mizzou's place as the best vet school in the state, but perhaps there would be a way to compliment it. There are many ways it could be implemented, as a public-private partnership with Purina PetCare perhaps. Zoo+Dogtown+Turtle Park+Hospital = Vet School. It seems really logical to me. And... we need to move the Museum of the Dog nearby and tie it to the SLAM...

Anyway, Scott is right, and that's why he should be elected and not me. It could probably still function as a hospital for humans, and if a nursing school wants to prop it up, we should let them.
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PostFeb 05, 2011#32

the central scrutinizer wrote:
The parking idea is DOA. Has anyone seen the people who go to the zoo? They'd scream bloody murder if they had to walk 3 blocks. Besides, as you said, the Zoo just spent a ton on the new parking lot/south entrance. Absent someone handing them a $20 million check, they ain't tearing it up.

I think if the vet school was such a good idea, we'd probably already have one at WashU or SLU. Mizzou & U of I both have top notch vet schools.
You're right. Gone Corporate convinced me that my first thought on parking there probably is not the best use for that space. I do like the vet school idea. It is harder to get into vet school than into med school.
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PostFeb 05, 2011#33

I was thinking a Baltimore, Chicago or Atlanta sized aquarium...Or even what they have down in Chattanooga, TN...A serious aquarium...Given how landlocked St. Louis is, it really does make sense...

@Alex...Dam!
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PostFeb 05, 2011#34

^Exactly what I am saying. Daron, I do not believe the City Museum's primary function is now, or will ever be, an aquarium.

A HUGE world class aquarium would take the place of the current city museum aquarium. I am talking about a destination attraction, not a side-project in something that is already is hugely popular for other things that it does much better!
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PostFeb 05, 2011#35

A veterinary hospital/school would be just as good as any other medical institutional use, as the expensive infrastructure for such a facility would largely already exist in such a facility like FP hospital, formerly known as Deaconess. I would be hugely in favor of the removal of the early 1970s era parking garage on the corner, across the street from Imo's, or at least a restructuring of this corner into some sort of a TRUE T.O.D. A BRT terminal would be great, if there was BRT in operation in this metro area, as it is conveniently adjacent to the freeway. Honestly, I don't think we'll see anything happen here for years, even if the building is largely empty.

PostFeb 05, 2011#36

...in fact, a whole ongoing series of feature posts on TODs in critical locations like the Grand Avenue Metrolink stop and Deer Creek would be advisable for "What Should Be". Graphic posts should inspire quite a lot of feedback, and hopefully returned in graphic form as well. There are many of us who have great ideas, good ideas, and bad ideas to share.
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PostFeb 05, 2011#37

john w. wrote:...in fact, a whole ongoing series of feature posts on TODs in critical locations like the Grand Avenue Metrolink stop and Deer Creek would be advisable for "What Should Be". Graphic posts should inspire quite a lot of feedback, and hopefully returned in graphic form as well. There are many of us who have great ideas, good ideas, and bad ideas to share.
I would love to have an organization that advocates TODs in STL. Graphic, written and researched proposals would be great. I think this forum offers a great deal of promise, because most everyone here comes up with interesting proposals and thoughts. If we could put these into action, we could do a lot.

PostFeb 06, 2011#38

Interesting enough the site is big enough to house an aquarium the size of the one in Georgia. That aquarium is the largest in the world.
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PostFeb 06, 2011#39

The Georgia Aquarium was presented to the city of Atlanta as a gift from Home Depot founder, Bernie Marcus. His donation of nearly $250 million enabled the building of a debt-free, state-of-the-art building on over 20 acres of land north of Centennial Olympic Park. An additional $40 million in financial contributions were donated by major corporations like the Coca-Cola Company, Turner Broadcasting, UPS, Home Depot and Time Warner.
Source
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PostFeb 06, 2011#40

bonwich wrote:
The Georgia Aquarium was presented to the city of Atlanta as a gift from Home Depot founder, Bernie Marcus. His donation of nearly $250 million enabled the building of a debt-free, state-of-the-art building on over 20 acres of land north of Centennial Olympic Park. An additional $40 million in financial contributions were donated by major corporations like the Coca-Cola Company, Turner Broadcasting, UPS, Home Depot and Time Warner.
Source

So all we have to do is find a boat load of cash. :wink:
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PostFeb 06, 2011#41

sigh, see the former posts on the downtown aquarium idea. I wouldn't be upset if an aquarium happened under zoo control across 64, but there is plenty of room in surface parking lots around the City Museum for an expansion of the current World Aquarium right out the side of the building into a new state-of-the art facility, more similar to the Dallas Aquarium than the one in Atlanta. The point again being that we should invest in and expand what we have, not duplicate efforts in status competitions of the "their aquarium is bigger than ours" sort. The World Aquarium is not part of the City Museum, it's a non-profit tenant renting space. It could move or it could expand in its current digs. Regardless of where it is, the point is that it is the St. Louis Aquarium at this time.


John, BRT terminal as TOD? We've got to overcome that model. We've already spent too much on it. Bus stop transfers are more flexible, cheaper, keep the action and investment on the street, and allow room for real businesses instead of expensive fields of concrete and fumes. I want to get off the bus in a place that has placeness, not an ugly concrete bunker.
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PostFeb 06, 2011#42

DaronDierkes wrote:sigh, see the former posts on the downtown aquarium idea. I wouldn't be upset if an aquarium happened under zoo control across 64, but there is plenty of room in surface parking lots around the City Museum for an expansion of the current World Aquarium right out the side of the building into a new state-of-the art facility, more similar to the Dallas Aquarium than the one in Atlanta. The point again being that we should invest in and expand what we have, not duplicate efforts in status competitions of the "their aquarium is bigger than ours" sort. The World Aquarium is not part of the City Museum, it's a non-profit tenant renting space. It could move or it could expand in its current digs. Regardless of where it is, the point is that it is the St. Louis Aquarium at this time.


John, BRT terminal as TOD? We've got to overcome that model. We've already spent too much on it. Bus stop transfers are more flexible, cheaper, keep the action and investment on the street, and allow room for real businesses instead of expensive fields of concrete and fumes. I want to get off the bus in a place that has placeness, not an ugly concrete bunker.
I don't disagree with your thoughts on the aquarium.

As for the sense of place in TOD's do you have an example? Most of the newly built TODs seem to lack a real sense of place. If anything placemaking in these is nothing more than than some borrowed aesthetic. That is not how a real place evolves. There has to be both public involvement and ties in the local building techniques. Too often new TODs seem to be bland modernist developments in the middle of traditional settings.

As for the BRT going in on that site, I think it could be a great thing. The area is close to many desirable elements (Zoo, Museums, Science Center, Turttle Park, Forest Park, and on the way to Downtown). If the Forest Park shuttle could connect to a new TOD on the Forest Park Hospital site, then there could be great incentive to use it. With new commerical development on the site and in the Highlands,this area could become a decent sized commercial center. Tie all this into the Metro link stops in Forest Park and in Shrewsberry to make the system fairly complete. If the BRT system expanded to a Grand TOD, as well as other close TODs and we could see some strength in the CBDs of our urban neighborhoods.
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PostFeb 06, 2011#43

DaronDierkes wrote:
John, BRT terminal as TOD? We've got to overcome that model. We've already spent too much on it. Bus stop transfers are more flexible, cheaper, keep the action and investment on the street, and allow room for real businesses instead of expensive fields of concrete and fumes. I want to get off the bus in a place that has placeness, not an ugly concrete bunker.

Daron, I do believe you have little idea of what a TOD is.

PostFeb 06, 2011#44

And, that was just a poke Daron, because I'm not asking for a descriptive tour of South Korea or Singapore, or anywhere else. I'm fully aware of the value and purpose of TOD, and an ugly concrete bunker is no description of a TOD. What, exactly, did you think I was talking about?

PostFeb 06, 2011#45

Transit Oriented Development (TOD) differs from the more commonly seen and comparatively disappointing Transit Adjacent Development (TAD)in that a true TOD's purpose, and often geometry, is directly informed by the transit line, track, or stop. Modifying the existing parking garage at the SEC of Hampton and Oakland to feature a street-facing cafe and convenience market- one that serves as the bus terminal for rapid transit and local traffic, and for the shuttle would be a great example of TOD. Leaving a Metrolink station in a ditch, without any strong or clear connection to any newly built adjacent retail, like the Brentwood-I 64 station, is a poor example of TOD.

PostFeb 06, 2011#46

Given the physical nature of our metropolitan area, I believe that BRT would best serve all citizens. Everyone loves the idea of fixed-rail transit, and I anticipate some modern streetcar lines to be proposed in the future of this city, but BRT is the least expensive and most practical for a metropolis that isn't already abounding in existing, unused rail corridors. Though I'm not suggesting we abandon the Metrolink, I don't believe this mode will bring the obviousness of the value of mass transit to all who could benefit very quickly at all. It's too cumbersome and expensive. It's too vulnerable to the votes of the opposed on various referenda. BRT could ultimately create more demand for the expansion of Metrolink by way of desired connectedness.
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PostFeb 07, 2011#47

john w. wrote:
DaronDierkes wrote:
John, BRT terminal as TOD? We've got to overcome that model. We've already spent too much on it. Bus stop transfers are more flexible, cheaper, keep the action and investment on the street, and allow room for real businesses instead of expensive fields of concrete and fumes. I want to get off the bus in a place that has placeness, not an ugly concrete bunker.
Daron, I do believe you have little idea of what a TOD is.
Ouch. I admit to using the term loosely to suit my own purposes. Let me rephrase my intent without fancy acroynms. Bus terminals as they exist in St. Louis near MetroLink stations are ugly concrete bunkers that take the buses and pedestrians off the streets and concentrate them in horrible spaces, away from any sort of cafe as you suggest. I've seen far finer examples of bus terminals elsewhere, but again definitions need to be addressed. Bus Station vs. Bus Stop vs. Bus Terminal vs. Bus Interchange etc. If terminal is the term used, it implies to me that the bus on 64 would have to take an exit and pull into some sort of cave that cost tax payers a lot of money, and the Hampton bus would as well. Both buses would lose time, and very possibly defy the logic of passengers that think they might be able to catch the Hampton bus on Hampton... as opposed to in a garage somewhere adjacent.

I'm just saying as a guy that uses the bus daily and has for years in many cities, that well designed on-street bus stops with route maps make a huge difference. Nice bus stops/stations for the 64 BRT, the Hampton bus, the dogtown bus, the Forest Park shuttle, and even some future extension of the loop trolley could all fit intelligently into the Oakland/Clayton/Hampton intersection much to the benefit of that intersection and businesses that happen to be on those streets, such as a new cafe. Even more so if that intersection was listed as a stop on each bus route serving that location. It wouldn't take long for bus riders to figure out they can transfer there.

Please keep the bus stops and pedestrians on the sidewalks, that's all I'm asking. Well that and no shuttle cul-de-sacs.
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PostFeb 07, 2011#48

john w. wrote:Transit Oriented Development (TOD) differs from the more commonly seen and comparatively disappointing Transit Adjacent Development (TAD)in that a true TOD's purpose, and often geometry, is directly informed by the transit line, track, or stop. Modifying the existing parking garage at the SEC of Hampton and Oakland to feature a street-facing cafe and convenience market- one that serves as the bus terminal for rapid transit and local traffic, and for the shuttle would be a great example of TOD. Leaving a Metrolink station in a ditch, without any strong or clear connection to any newly built adjacent retail, like the Brentwood-I 64 station, is a poor example of TOD.

Brentwood is more of a park n' ride. I don't understand how anyone could consider it a TOD, because its missing too many elements.

Continue to throw out ideas for a Deconess/FP TOD. I might be able to draw up something this week.

PostFeb 07, 2011#49

DaronDierkes wrote:
john w. wrote:
DaronDierkes wrote:
John, BRT terminal as TOD? We've got to overcome that model. We've already spent too much on it. Bus stop transfers are more flexible, cheaper, keep the action and investment on the street, and allow room for real businesses instead of expensive fields of concrete and fumes. I want to get off the bus in a place that has placeness, not an ugly concrete bunker.
Daron, I do believe you have little idea of what a TOD is.
Ouch. I admit to using the term loosely to suit my own purposes. Let me rephrase my intent without fancy acroynms. Bus terminals as they exist in St. Louis near MetroLink stations are ugly concrete bunkers that take the buses and pedestrians off the streets and concentrate them in horrible spaces, away from any sort of cafe as you suggest. I've seen far finer examples of bus terminals elsewhere, but again definitions need to be addressed. Bus Station vs. Bus Stop vs. Bus Terminal vs. Bus Interchange etc. If terminal is the term used, it implies to me that the bus on 64 would have to take an exit and pull into some sort of cave that cost tax payers a lot of money, and the Hampton bus would as well. Both buses would lose time, and very possibly defy the logic of passengers that think they might be able to catch the Hampton bus on Hampton... as opposed to in a garage somewhere adjacent.

I'm just saying as a guy that uses the bus daily and has for years in many cities, that well designed on-street bus stops with route maps make a huge difference. Nice bus stops/stations for the 64 BRT, the Hampton bus, the dogtown bus, the Forest Park shuttle, and even some future extension of the loop trolley could all fit intelligently into the Oakland/Clayton/Hampton intersection much to the benefit of that intersection and businesses that happen to be on those streets, such as a new cafe. Even more so if that intersection was listed as a stop on each bus route serving that location. It wouldn't take long for bus riders to figure out they can transfer there.

Please keep the bus stops and pedestrians on the sidewalks, that's all I'm asking. Well that and no shuttle cul-de-sacs.
First, I totally agree with your sentiments regarding "TODs" in St. Louis. I am of the opinion that we in fact have none and need to rethink our current strategy regarding bus "terminals".

Second, can you offer up more suggestions regarding optimal conditions for BRT riders? I will try to incorporate those suggestions into the mock up I mentioned above.
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PostFeb 07, 2011#50

zun1026 wrote:Brentwood is more of a park n' ride. I don't understand how anyone could consider it a TOD, because its missing too many elements. Continue to throw out ideas for a Deconess/FP TOD. I might be able to draw up something this week.
While you and I both know that the Brentwood metrolink stop is nothing more than a glorified park'n'ride with the garage, the new "Hanley Station" mixed-use development adjacent to the stop (as well as the retail buildings where Best Buy and Dierberg's are located) are billed as a TOD, and were during their construction. The laughable "Boulevard St. Louis" across from the Galleria was billed as TOD related to the Richmond Heights metro stop. Chew on that one for awhile.
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