urbanSTL

What could of the city have done differently to ensure that Schnucks as well as the other small businesses in the area thrive?

The City and Downtown partnership should have looked at the plans for the store and made sure what that plan was would not be a detrement to the neighborhood businesses around. It like the CVS's opening opposite a Walgreens ,and the city giving them money to do it. It's not like the CVS would bring in different people. All they are going to do is steal from the current clientel. we need to be diverse and offer different things to appeal to a wider scope of people.

if they had opened a grocery store that sold coffee beans, fine, all grocery stores do that , but to open a coffee bar , it was an obvious attempt to lure business away from places that already offered this, they were not filling a void in the downtown market, and they don't even have to make money doing it.

Downtown needs small businesses like Espresso Mod as well as the big guys. We need a good mix of both. But we also need a good mix of customer support for these businesses. When Culinaria was not open Espresso Mod did better (lack of competition), but when Culinaria opened it was his "loyal" customers who jumped ship. For whatever reason, they chose to support a different merchant. There are good customers and fair weather customers. The latter of which will dump you in a New York second, depending on which way the wind is blowing and IMO how cheap they can buy it. Many a small business survives in the shadow of the big guy by being different or by offering something unique that the big guys do not offer. Whether it be service beyond comparison or a product you just can't find at the big stores. But when two places offer virtually the same thing, ie. coffee and there is nothing exceptional in the case of either one, there is very little customer loyalty. To stand out you have to stand out. Price is always a balancing act for the merchant, but when you do something some one else isn't or can't do you then carve a very unique niche that the customer knows he has to come to you if he wants something that good. Come lately, coffee shops are a dime a dozen and what I can get at one I can pretty much get at another. Blame Culinaria or the economy but I think you need to blame the customer. No one twisted their arm and made them go elsewhere. They had the choice and could have supported Espresso Mod regardless of who opened downtown. There just wasn't enough paint on the wall to keep it from fading. I have also heard it called the WOW factor.

I agree. Its the customer that send people out of business not the store across the street. I also agree that the Kaldi's was probably not needed when we have numerous fine coffee shops close by. But thats what they decided to provide. Its not the cities responsibility to tell them what they can and cannot sell.



Downtown is better with the grocery store than without.

well I guess you guys nailed it. we just weren't good enough or unique enough. My Bad

I'm sure the owner invested a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into their business. I've heard nothing but good things about Espresso Mod. One distinction, however, is that they closed @ 4pm whereas Culinaria closes @ 10pm. But business is business. Our hopes and dreams were answered by Schnucks arriving downtown. It's not our fault, that of the city, or state. It's just life. For every bit of happiness, there's a fair share of sadness and disappointment. You will be missed.

Thank you

We did try other hours and weekends but the volume never amounted to anything, which I was suprised at after I opened.

Again I'm not saying Culinaria shouldn't have come and isnt a needed additition, and if they hadn't gotten all that money I'd have nothing to say as this is, or should be, a free market.

I just beleive, with a little forethought and restraint, we could have made the area stronger as a whole instead of a game "Last Store Standing".

Being critical of a small business owner in downtown St. Louis who had to close is bad form..I thank you for your guts in trying and hope that down the road you reopen somewhere and enjoy lasting success...

I guess I just don't get why Kaldi's inside Schnucks is such a threat to independent coffee shops if Starbucks just down the street is not?

^ I thought Paul's point was that Starbucks did not receive tax breaks to open up (to my knowledge) while Schnucks received millions, making it possible to undercut competition.

I hate to see any good business close, almost as much as I hate to see a drop in competition and variety. Like I said before, though, I am surprised that Culinaria is converting so many coffee/lunch people; my experiences with both have been less than stellar. I definitely think that Culinaria is an 800 lb gorilla and that the game has changed downtown, but I do not feel like they are engaging in predatory pricing. I think that the tax breaks definitely make it more profitable (and maybe allow the prices to stay in line with other Schnuck's) but I don't think that they are trying to knock all of the competition out (again, predatory pricing).



This could be more of an indictment of the office workers from the suburbs who are unwilling to patronize non-brand-name stores (?)

Yea, I had made a comment before that having Schnucks as a grocery store downtown is great. But having been for lunch a few times, nothing from prepared foods stands out as spectacular. I'd much rather eat (and drink) at one of the many surrounding restaurants than taking out or eating in at Culinaria. That goes for the coffee as well. I'm still surprised by the wall-to-wall crowds waiting during lunch.

bprop wrote:I thought Paul's point was that Starbucks did not receive tax breaks to open up (to my knowledge) while Schnucks received millions, making it possible to undercut competition.

True enough, but I think Starbucks on Olive Street is doing okay despite the presence of the Culinaria Kaldi's just three blocks to the west.



I am very sad that Espresso Mod closed, and I truly wish I could have made it there more often. I also wish the owners well- I especially enjoyed the atmosphere and the mornings with Formula One on the telly (as some might say).



While I understand the reasons they couldn't extend their hours, I must say there have been times when I've popped into Culinaria for coffee in the afternoon and evening (a time that's more convenient for me to go downtown) when no one else was open.



Now that I know Cafe Cioccolato is open in the evenings, I will give that option a try some time. But I'd really like to find a way to promote a positive discussion about downtown that takes the needs of small business owners into account without demonizing Culinaria and Schnucks. We may not like the inequities in the system, but it's hardly anything new, and it's certainly not unique to St. Louis. Hopefully people in leadership positions will address the need to maintain a balance of chains and independents downtown, because as downtown continues to mature, that balance is probably going to be precarious for awhile.

Earlier in this discussion, there was a question about Pasta House Pronto at the Old Post Office. Yes, they are closed. So it is not only the little guys that are taking a hit, but the big guys also. I know sometime back, before Culinaria opened, the manager told me they were struggling. Apparently, the opening of Culinaria and economic conditions was enough to push them over the edge as it was with some other businesses. I think what we are seeing here is the businesses were either just doing ok or were already struggling and the opening of Culinaria was enough to push them over the edge. Even City Gourmet is struggling, which had for several years enjoyed a great deal of success.



Another thing, it seems like Kaldi's is the real winner in the coffee house saga. Since they not only have their brand prominently displayed in Culinaria, but several other places downtown sell Kaldi's coffee and proudly display this fact. To name a few, Geletaria, 6 North, and Culinaria. I personally don't get it. Why an independent would continue to sell the same brand his competition sells is beyond me. Seems like a slap in the face to me. Especially when Kaldi's opened it own store in their back yard.



I know Geletaria has enjoyed their growth downtown, but you got to ask the question, if I can get a Kaldi coffee and gelato at Culinaria, why would I walk all the way to 14th Street to get the same thing as they also sell Kaldi coffee and gelato. Fortunately for Geletaria, they do have one key factor to succeed and that is neighborhood support, great service and a nice atmosphere. But I would venture to guess they have had some decline in sales as their customer also shops at Culinaria and may opt to get their espresso and gelato there on the days they shop for groceries.



Which brings me back to my original comment earlier. If independents do not offer something really different from the big guy all to often there is not enough reason to go there unless it is just more convenient.



Espresso Mod did a fine job, it's just the competition just got tough for them as they were one of 5 places selling espresso drinks within a two block area of which 4 are independents. And espresso seemed to be their bread and butter.



Remember it is the customer who makes the decision where they shop and what they will buy, it is the business who makes it inciting enough for the customer to shop at their place. A business owner told me once that he figured it out, he noticed he only had customers when he was open. Finally, are you an independent if you sell the same thing the other guy sells.

Sounds like a smart business move on their part.

Now if they'd only open early in the morning for when people, you know, drink coffee