urbanSTL

Grover wrote:^ Most of the properties highlighted are single-family, at least $500K homes with some 6-unit condos and some rentals. People sometimes express frustration about the lack of "urban" Walgreens or other retail/amenities. This area, and the rest of St. Louis simply isn't as dense as places that have more urban retail (parts of Chicago, Boston, etc.).

i lived in the westmoreland neighborhood of kansas city, missouri, which is a streetcar suburb of comparable density to maplewood. it had no problem supporting a 100% urban wild oats in a 100 year old corner building (it had "broken into" adjacent stores/storefronts to expand). obviously it was on a highly trafficked and autocentric-degraded urban "great street," (sounds like delmar at it's worst) but brought a large amount of foot and bicycle traffic in (the bikes weren't actually ridden in the store.) not to mention there is a big box grocery less than a mile away.



i can't believe you brought the old "we arent chicago" argument! this is the (or one of several) mantra that has held back st. louis, while giant streetcar suburbs like portland, oregon (understatement, i know ) have re-defined themselves. looking at the greater west, i have realized density isn't the challenge for st. louis (sorry, i went off on a tangent).



anyway, i think an urban grocer would work on delmar (where exactly, i don't know...the churches lot would be a great location, proximate to skinky-d, and the apartment neighborhoods north and south of delmar in u-city (and of course the richies who dont shop ). it would be interesting to scale a 1/2 mile radius around the intersection of skinker and delmar on a map, and see what we get.

I think the CWE is fairly dense, despite the large single family homes most people associate with it. There are quite a few mid and high rises that increase its population density significantly. And they are able to support Straub's, Golden Grocers, Shapiro's and a nearby Schnucks, the first three of which have very little parking. I should think the areas around the Loop and/or Skinker-DeBaliviere have enough large-ish apartment buildings to support something the size of Straub's.

heres a satellite photo of a different grocery store i used to walk to (it's a safeway or something) in kc...decent size (again, i think it uses adjacent structures). not perfectly urban, but reasonable. i don't know who owned the south parking lot, but nobody ever parked there, the "non-angled angled" parking was enough for those who drove...and there are other business using that parking as well (in addition, no on street parking is allowed on main st. due to a BRT lane, "so this is basically it...") this is king-of-the-car kansas city here...

Grover wrote: My point is only that everyone (on here) seems to be screaming for urban development, but there isn't a truly dense urban environment in the St. Louis metro.

but where does one draw the line? i keep going on about portland, (which i hope is redefining peoples ideas about what makes a city tick), but comparing that municipalities outlying neighborhoods with the sometimes banged up but still physically superior neighborhoods of st. louis city, i walk away thinking "urban density is important, but not everything it seems."

Grover wrote:Per the examples, there are similar places that have some stores, but the numbers don't seem to be here yet or (I believe) we would have more urban development. Too much land, too many cars.

well, not to be a grump, but i sometimes think the reason is much harder to fix than this.

If the intersection of Delmar and Debaliviere were properly developed (or had simply been left alone) it would not be the retail/pedestrian dead-zone that it is now. It should be an active intersection pulling development eastward. Instead it's a bus garage for Metro.



Hopefully at some point (post loop trolley perhaps) it will become viable for Metro to sell that property to developers at a profit and relocate the garage to a much less residential/retail/pedestrian and altogether dynamic area.

You don't need magnificent densities to maintain an active retail corridor. And you don't need high rises to have density.



St. Louis's average density is somewhat high, at, off the top of my head, 5,800 people per square mile. Of course, in healthy areas with fewer vacancies, densities are much higher, even into the ten thousands per square mile.



Try going HERE. Then type in the name of another city to compare densities.

I forgot to mention the example of the storefront latin american grocery store on cherokee......textbook urban grocery (yes, it has produce and a meat department).



theres more like it around the city. it's time the loop area had something so basic and essential.



i'm done going on about it and posting crazy graphics, etc.

One big problem is the resistance of neighborhood residents to stores which sell alcohol. When I first moved into Skinker-Debaliviere in 2002, neighborhood leaders were still bragging about how many convenience stores they had chased away!



This is part of the grand St. Louis tradition of throwing out the baby with the bath water. (Think basketball courts, outdoor chess, park benches. Better to get rid of these things rather than deal with any social disorders that happen around them.)



Maybe now that things have stabilized in the neighborhood, folks will reconsider. No one, however, is going to open a grocery store if they can't sell booze, cigarettes, and lottery tickets, and appeal to people beyond yuppified versions of the Women's Christian Temperance Union.

Rumors are circulating that an upscale food/beverage store is trying to move into the old Dobbs Tire place across from the Metrolink station.



Boy would that be a piece of heaven.



Wash U. owns the property, and there was already one failed effort to get Companion in there. Anyone connected to the big red gorilla (or is it a bear) should push push push.

STLgasm wrote:That would be awesome if the rumors are true.



What the hell is going on with the Loop Center? The sign is still up but there's been no activity at all.



Also, are there any updates regarding the streetcar line that Joe Edwards is pushing for?

I found this on a planning website.

"Locals come to The Loop on foot while others arrive by MetroLink, the area's successful rail system. If Loop advocates are successful, a trolley eventually will shuttle passengers between the Missouri History Museum in Forest Park and Delmar Boulevard. A $1.5 million feasibility study is expected to be completed in early 2009."

Pam's Chicago Style Dogs and More has just opened up (this week or last) in the vacant Coffee on the Loop site, 6016 Delmar, (which was next to the original Genesis Coffee House). I'm predicting that three is a charm. Food (three pages of items in the menu) is before the coffee at this eatery, the Gyro that I ate there this afternoon was hot and delicious, service was fast, and Pam's is right across from the new Metrolink Delmar platform.

migueltejada wrote:


ARE YOU KIDDING ME!??!?!?!



$1.5m for a feasibility study? What the hell are these people paying for!? It's a 2 mile street car line - $1.5 million dollars!?



For that much money, Joe could buy, rehab, and re-sell half of the properties in north St. louis.



What a f'n waste of money.

Sure, it sounds like a lot of money, but when you are talking about anything in-depth that will require analysis of environmental impact, ridership analysis, usability studies, and anything else you can possibly imagine needing to be reported to just about every government acronym you can think of, the costs add up pretty quickly.

I stand by my claim. $1.5 million for a FEASIBILITY STUDY is WAY too much for a project this small. How much would the actual project itself cost? $100 million? This whole thing is making less and less sense to me - and it never made much in the first place.

Don't get me wrong. I agree whole-heartedly that it is a good chunk of money for a pretty short trolley line. I am just saying that once the various "consultants" and such get done determining the estimated number of squirrels that might get torched by high-voltage lines and exactly the best way to make every single stop on the line wheel-chair accessible - never mind that a wheelchair will probably be able to get down Delmar faster on the sidewalk - the costs add up.



And I agree with questioning the project anyway. I could understand running a trolley line from the Delmar East station to the proposed Delmar West (Daniel Boone line) station might make sense, but just through the Loop? Ugh. I would assume they wouldn't close the Loop to auto traffic. Its bad enough now. Cars and trolleys? Double ugh.



And according to the Citizens for Modern Transit, the cost to build is approx. $32 million ...

The money is for preliminary engineering. The feasibility study was completed in 2000. The scope of work will include ridership forecast, alignment, construction and operating costs and the like. The study will also focus on local funding options and the wisdom of pursuing federal funds.

[Preliminary engineering I'd think would include drafts of stops, proposed construction materials, signalling equipment, etc ]



That too. Hope to get to 30 or 40 percent.



We're spending some time on funding options to see if it is worth it to pursue federal funding since FTA is channeling the small starts funds to bus projects. Whether that will change in January is anyone's guess. [/quote]