urbanSTL

bonwich wrote:Let us at least give Drury credit where it's due: They saved several endangered downtown buildings for their downtown hotels. (I'm thinking that in addition to the Drury-branded ones, they're also responsible for the Hilton at 400 Olive.)

Yes, you are correct. And not just in St. Louis, they have re-used historic buildings in New Orleans and San Antonio as well. Kudos to Drury for recognizing a good business opportunity. However, I still have yet to see a new hotel building that Drury has constructed where the designers gave any thought to anything other than producing the absolute cheapest hotel possible, location be damned.



Here is a radical thought: I think everyone, other than perhaps the residents, recognize that, once I-64 reconstruction is complete, this will be a very valuable piece of property. So, before this city's old boy machinery produces public incentives for another pile-o-crap, maybe we could declare this a redevelopment area, and actually request proposals?!? I'm sure that there is more than one hotel and/or mixed-use residential developer that might be interested in this site. And then, maybe we could use that competition to extract more concessions from the developer? What a novel concept!

wuphys wrote:Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it doesn't look like much if any of the built environment will be torn down. This is mostly going where the old cloverleaf on/off ramp was, is it not? Can someone confirm?



-RBB





They were pretty vague about how many buildings would be taken, which was frustrating but somewhat understandable since they don't have any building plans finalized. At one point Tim Drury mentioned they would need to go "5 to 7" buildings deep into some of the blocks, but again he didn't mention if that would include Chouteau, Gibson, Arco, and Oakland or only some of those blocks. Grover, I could be wrong but I got the impression they would definetely be going east of the alleyway connecting Gibson down to Oakland. Do you think they are staying west of that?

As some have very astutely pointed out, the rendering is JUST a rendering and apparently these things can change (who knew - ), but it shows the development going up to the alley but not beyond. Look - I know this area very well and the nicest parts of FPSE (re: housing stock/upkeep) are on the 4500 blocks along these streets. So far I think that the hotel is a good idea IF it stays west of the alley. I walked the area again today and this would appear to mean that 4-5 homes would be lost. I didn't hear anyone mention 5-7 homes deep. This would be A LOT of additional land and it doesn't appear to be needed for what we were shown. I just hope that I can look at this project objectively before I'm wowed by more pretty pictues - and if they put a rattle or some candy in front of me watch out! I'll agree to Winghaven in Forest Park!

Would someone please post a picture of great new urban development project! I’m at a loss here and the stink of elitist dribble is starting to give me a headache. Has anyone of you ever been inside a Drury lobby? Do any of you know how much a hotel costs to construct? Have any of you ever built a hotel? Have you ever financed a hotel? Do any of you work in the construction industry? I don’t mind well thought out and coherent opposition to this project especially from the residents of FPSE, but what went on in the first part of that meeting was a bunch out of touch wannabe revolutionaries talking trash. These folks would protest if they found a cure for the common cold on this site. There wasn’t a single thought out or intelligent criticism of the project. I was literally on the fence going into this meeting up until when the third tirade started (by the guy with a voice so annoying it could peel onions) about the Drurys being deceptive and “shallow” even though they are presenting a project to a neighborhood with more than 90% of the property still un-acquired. Which if you have been graced or cursed with a development project in the 17th ward you know is absolutely unheard of. It’s usually, “guess what we are building right here how can we get the keys”. So the developer brings a concept not a final project and we get treated to almost three hours of “please listen to me yell, no one listens to me anymore”. Here is the bottom line, SOMETHING IS GOING TO GO THERE.



1. Green space: I’m going to start making this term synonymous with “Weapons of Mass Destruction”. Is a patch of grass right next to a nuclear power plant a green space? So we are supposed to sit on a park bench and watch the traffic go by. I can’t wait to take the kids there maybe the can go deaf or catch lung cancer from the exhaust. Not to mention who is going to pay for it? Who is going to maintain it? Why don’t we use that funding to maintain the parks on the north side or any of the other neglected city parks whose names don’t start with Forest and end with Park. What is the morality involved in building a park in the name of “green space” next to an onramp when you have the one of the largest urban parks in the country a pedestrian bridge walk away?

2. Drury Hotel:

a) Best Case: They live up to their promise. They only take 7 buildings (which is what he said not 5-7 on each block). They buy the owners out (they have two of the buildings). They do not use eminent domain (they are now on video recording and have publicly stated their intention not to). They cannot use eminent domain (the alderman has already stated that he will not allow them to do so). They listen to the neighborhood and compromise on design issues and architecture. Maybe they drop it a couple of stories. We require them to add some sort of green development to their design. We require that the put there dumpsters and delivery docks on either the south and north sides, along Kingshighway, or underneath in their parking structure. They honor the frontage so when you look down Gibson or Chouteau your view of the park isn’t obstructed (this view is non-existent, you cannot see the park from either of the streets, you might be able to see to planetarium). The trees will block the view of the towers on the streets similar to Maryland in the CWE. You will see the towers from your backyard and it will block dusk (I got nothing cute to say about this, it’s a fact). This will affect residents on the Arco/Gibson alley and the Chouteau/Gibson alley with the greatest affects on the west end of the blocks. They will be structures the residents had a say in designing and they will look nice. They will provide around a 50-100 jobs, some which will be entry level and some professional within walking distance of a few thousand neighborhood and City residents. They will provide scholarships to neighborhood students interested in hotel management at Forest Park Community College. They provide a place for internships as well. We pick the traffic pattern. (I don’t know why we spent hours on this subject, they are our streets we can determine which street loop or turn into two ways with no commercial vehicle signs and we can put in residential parking districts as well). We have access to an open walking campus that includes (I can’t believe I’m going to say this) paid for and maintained green space. We have access to a coffee shop and restaurant. 300 rooms in the first tower with 60%-70% occupancy at any given time, that’s around 200 folks that maybe 50 will walk down our streets and patronize our businesses which will create additional jobs and businesses. Double that with the second tower. Added security to that part of the neighborhood which was hit with a rash of armed robberies and is consistently target for auto break-ins and thefts. A secure walking environment for the new pedestrian bridge (if you think our current bridge is secure than you live closer to Taylor and have no idea, the amount of traffic is constant throughout the night and contributes to at least 40% of random crime in Gibson heights). A hotel within walking distance of our houses for relatives and friends to stay when they visit (no in laws in the spare bedroom).

b) Worst case: They don’t do what they say. They take ten buildings. They buy the owners out (they have two of the buildings). They do not use eminent domain (they are now on video recording and have publicly stated their intention not to). They cannot use eminent domain (the alderman has already stated that he will not allow them to do so). They go with whatever design they dream up and it looks like a retro glass and plaster structure like the Park East Tower in CWE (which works over there but will look bad in FPSE). They honor the frontage so when you look down Gibson or Chouteau your view of the park isn’t obstructed (this is now their foot print and legislative support will depend on it). The trees will block the view of the towers on the streets similar to Maryland in the CWE. You will see the towers from your backyard and it will block dusk (I got nothing cute to say about this, it’s a fact). This will affect residents on the Arco/Gibson alley and the Chouteau/Gibson alley with the greatest affects on the west end of the blocks. They will be ugly. They will provide around a 50-100 jobs, some which will be entry level and some professional within walking distance of a few thousand neighborhood and City residents.. We pick the traffic pattern. (I don’t know why we spent hours on this subject, they are our streets we can determine which street loop or turn into two ways with no commercial vehicle signs and we can put in residential parking districts as well). We have access to an open walking campus that includes (I can’t believe I’m going to say this) paid for and maintained green space. We have access to a coffee shop and restaurant. 300 rooms in the first tower with 60%-70% occupancy at any given time, that’s around 200 folks that maybe 50 will walk down our streets and patronize our businesses which will create additional jobs and businesses. Double that with the second tower. Added security to that part of the neighborhood which was hit with a rash of armed robberies and is consistently target for auto break-ins and thefts. A secure walking environment for the new pedestrian bridge (if you think our current bridge is secure than you live closer to Taylor and have no idea, the amount of traffic is constant throughout the night and contributes to at least 40% of random crime in Gibson heights). A hotel within walking distance of our houses for relatives and friends to stay when they visit (no in laws in the spare bedroom).

3. Another Development: We get another development on the site because lets face MODOT didn’t show up to talk about the interchange. They were there to tell everyone that they are suppose to remand 2 acres back to Forest Park and that have 7 acres of empty space left over. Something will go on the 5 acres. I don’t care how much time you have on your hands or how many lawyers you’re going to talk into taking this thing pro bono. We live in a City, you don’t want density move out of it and contribute to the sprawl. I’m thinking a McDonalds; in fact I’ve already heard rumors that they have caught wind of the site. Oh maybe we could get a QT with package liquor. Maybe a Starbucks or a Walgreen’s. They could build any of these out far enough where they wouldn’t even have to talk to any of us. Or “nice view of the park” would be blocked. We could listen to there dumpsters being dumped and have their patrons walk through our “nice quiet streets” (I loved that one during the meeting, these streets are quiet during the day, try looking out your window at night lady). Maybe we will get lucky and some benevolent developer with deep pockets will show up on the scene and we will get some almighty perfect development, all brick with a green roof and solar panels. I think if a big project like this gets shot down you can forget about another serious developer looking at this things for another 10 years. I’ll take fries with that.



I have one point. You better start making some sense if you plan on talking anyone out of this thing. Taste questions about architecture or hearsay about the integrity of the Drurys do not hold sway with me or any of the other “sheep”. You think this is a poor urban design show me a good one. You claim the Drurys are shady then give me an instance where they have been. Their Union Station Project and the Fur Trade buildings are magnificent. I fail to grasp any of your arguments against their stand alones and I guarantee none of their guest showed up and said “Gee honey this is one ugly hotel”. Show me a good looking stand alone. If you can’t, get your butt off the computer chair and design and develop one. You want to get up and talk trash then you better have some substance to back it up.