urbanSTL

goat314 wrote:I think a large issue is the fact that St. Louis is an independent city, so the rest of the region obviously doesn't view it as the center of the region.

I don't think that's the case. You don't have to live in the City to think that Downtown is the center of the region.

goat314 wrote:Look at Clayton, that's how downtown streets would look if the city was in St. Louis county.

Do you think Clayton's sidewalks are nicer than Downtown's? The streetscapes Downtown are endlessly more impressive than what you see in Clayton, and I've never particularly been wowed or even noticed any particular sidewalk or lighting elements that set Downtown Clayton apart from any other dense, walkable part of the region.

goat314 wrote:Dated streetscapes definitely contribute to the lack of investment also.

Goat, I just don't understand these complaints. Downtown West definitely has some rough patches. And perhaps the streetscapes north of Wash. Ave. and south of Spruce are problematic, but those aren't really the main pedestrian parts of Downtown. IMO the Downtown core presents an amazing, often unmatched combination of contemporary spaces and historic corridors. Turning onto Wash. Ave. anywhere from 4th to 14th will blow your mind. OPO Plaza and City Garden provide great contemporary streetscapes and resting places. Walking past any number of the parking garages isn't pleasant, but that's more the built environment than the street itself.

Take a random example: Pine & 9th - there's a surface lot, a garage, the Omni Hotel, and the Southwestern Bell Building. There are a few planters, a couple trees, a few cobra lights, white painted crosswalks, and the sidewalks seem to be in good shape. Do you really think this is so outdated or rundown that it compares unfavorably to other cities or would prevent someone from leasing office space or moving Downtown? Maybe I'm easy to please, or need to get back to some of the cities you've listed, but a corner like that doesn't really bother me.

^ Wabash, obviously downtown is the most interesting and exciting business district in the region. My complaint was the date infrastructure, most of it from the 60s-70s, one way streets, ugly garages, lack of street trees does not help our cause. Washington Avenue is the only street downtown that looks like its even cared for. Plenty other streets downtown have broken up sidewalks, some parts of downtown west have weeds growing out the sidewalks, faded looking street paint etc. I'm not saying that downtown isn't a great place, the vistas of historic buildings are awesome and totally under appreciated. I'm just saying the infrastructure itself looks ugly as hell and many parts of downtown are simply gloomy and unsafe feeling when it gets dark. For the record, many cities have way more attractive downtowns, not the historic buildings obviously, but the overall aesthetic.

Take a walk down 4th street and you'll notice completely different sidewalk treatments on the same block, sometimes the sidewalk is different in front of different buildings and they are in desperate need of a good power washing or something, the planters are dated and inappropriately planted....and this is within the central business district with a bunch of hotels.

4th street should be a gorgeous street, esp. north of Market, but it's gross.

The lack of consistent maintenance and application of materials is something that really stands out to me.

Say what you want about Clayton, but the streetscape elements, not the buildings, are cleaner and in better condition than DT's.

I've worked downtown for 8 years and I'm sorry, it just looks tired and like a patchwork of different eras.

And yeah...people. Many more needed.

I don't like to compare STL to other cities, but other cities I've visited do leave me yearning for cleaner and more consistent hardscaping in our own downtown.

^ exactly, its not the buildings. Downtown has a beautiful collection of buildings from many different eras. There is also a pretty consistent theme with the buildings. It seems like there is a consistent earthy, river themed color palette that is done really well. The problem is the lack of conistency and uniformity with the infrastructure. Like you said, some areas have brown sidewalks others are white, then you get a random ornate lamp post, next to a 1960s cobrahead....the whole feel is just schizophrenic and it really bothers me. Although we may not like to compare ourselves to other cities, somebody coming from a more modern city with better coordination and planning will automatically notice it. I also think aesthetics, maintenance, and overall cleanliness is important, especially for a city like St. Louis, that wants to have tourist and attract conventions.

My worry is that this tax increase is going to be used to finance the streetscape around the new stadium instead of the areas of downtown that actually need it. Anyone have those same concerns?

Completely agree with the comments about the need for a better built environment. Most everyone involved with downtown revitalization has been trying to make that happen for years. So if City Hall won't invest downtown generated tax revenue back into downtown, how do we pay for all of these improvements?

downtown2007 wrote:My worry is that this tax increase is going to be used to finance the streetscape around the new stadium instead of the areas of downtown that actually need it. Anyone have those same concerns?

Fortunately, it sounds like the northern boundary on the eastern edge of the proposed area will be Carr Street. In which case the new stadium site would be excluded.

Here is an updated story on the possible taxing district:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 6fdb5.html

looks like they may try to do a combo of sales and property tax. Several streets were mentioned as possible priorities, most of which have been discussed here at different times.... Tucker, Washington, Clark, (Busch to Scottrade) 7th or 8th (BPV to Wash Ave.) As $$ would still be limited it would be interesting to see what would be prioritized.

There also was a very supportive comment from the owner of the marketing agency TOKY, located in Midtown, on extending the TDD to Compton:

Extending the district west from downtown would help redevelop “gaps” between downtown, midtown, Grand Center and Cortex, said the TOKY president, whose office is in the Midtown Alley area.

“St. Louis needs a united corridor,” he said. “You start stringing these things together and you get a full spine (of redevelopment).”

I can see that.

whatever the amount it raises they can get 4X if they play their cards right with STP, TAP and CMAQ $ at EWGateway...just need a 20% (of project cost) as "local" match.

If this passes and they get the funding, I wouldn't be surprised to see improvements move pretty quickly. SLDC had plans to do streetscapes for the entire downtown area before 2008. The recession halted everything. There's been a good amount of engineering completed already.

roger wyoming II wrote:^ right.... that is the problem with the current CID; it doesn't provide enough $$ to fund local matches.

Not with the salaries of the eight corporate folks working for Downtown Inc consuming over one third of CID revenue. You're right there isn't enough left to pay for actual services. Yet, those services are what is always touted by their PR. I note the the same folks are going to run the TDD. They'll probably give themselves healthy raises.

It makes sense to have the downtown TDD include downtown west and midtown. The area would essentially be in no man's land without it, sandwiched between Grand Center and the CBD CID. I believe Grand Center's TIF district and great streets plan stops at Compton.

If we already had a strong downtown core in a metropolitan region experiencing slow to moderate growth; I would agree with you. We have a weak downtown core in a metropolitan region experiencing almost no growth (other than what gets added with the incorporation of lands on the edges of the region every census). If we had a core to grow a spine off of, that would be great. We don't.

^ Well in an ideal situation the city would probably be comprised of the city and county giving us a population of 1.3 million. We would also be bonding out an expansive light rail system and creating many urban nodes to keep up with being one of the fastest growing and safest big cities in the country. Downtown would be considered roughly from the riverfront to Grand, Midtown would be from Grand to Forest Park, and Uptown would be Clayton. Perceptions would be changed from being a dying, crime filled, boring river city, to a sprawly, progressive Midwestern beacon with beautiful urban core that's on the upswing, further incentivizing investment and growth. Immigrants and transplants would google St. Louis and not see a smallish, crime filled, rust belt town, but instead a stable, metropolis and top 10 city. Seriously most people have no idea that St. Louis is bigger than Indianapolis, Nashville, or even Kansas City. A declining city of 300,000 isn't very attractive to most millenials or people we want to attract and that's what shapes the perception of our region internationally and nationally. I believe Vince Schoemel said that one of the biggest impediments St. Louis always faced from an outside investment standpoint was a fragmented government system. Companies would want to invest in the region, but wouldn't understand our complex govt. structure. They ended up investing in places with the least resistance, which explains why midsized cities like Indianapolis, Columbus, Nashville, Louisville, etc. have had at least modest growth while St. Louis is stuck in neutral. For example, If Amazon wants to build a distribution center in the Midwest, they may come to St. Louis first because we are at the confluence of America's largest rivers, major railroad, and interstate hub, a perfect formula for investment. Then they contact the chamber and are bombarded with 50 different proposals from within the region. The next week they go Indy and are greeted with one simple and concise message, Welcome to Indianapolis! Where do you think they are going to invest?

^ I agree Roger, the downtown streetcar seems like a great idea. I would love to see the focus reoriented north and south, but maybe a strong central corridor phase 1 will get more people on board. I remember hearing about a year ago that the city was planning to make the st. louis streetcar into the north-south metrolink, this is from the same person that said the Westport line was next and now fast forward a year later and Stenger is proposing county only metrolink expansion, with Westport being the only likely candidate to make it.

What I found really interesting was that the regional chamber slammed the Connect2045 plan and apparently have already been brainstorming with CMT to find alternative funding mechanism to build out metrolink. The chamber said they would like to see at least two more lines built in the relatively near future (my guess is North-South and Westport), because with other peer cities rapidly expanding transit it puts us at a competitive disadvantage with other cities not to have a more comprehensive rail system.