Downtown Residential Market Thriving

roger wyoming II · PostApr 07, 2014#1762014-04-07T01:55+00:00

bigmclargehuge wrote: Well he wasnt lying about the crime part though. When Sugar was open on 14th i woke up to gunshots three nights in the span of 6 months. But that was 4 years ago. And thankfully its closed And yes i have had girls i know harassed by people on the street. So the perception of safety is still a huge issue. The line of Washington is a bust is total BS though. All that developer needs to do is drive down on a weekend night to prove that wrong

Right.... I think it is fair to say that there are issues and concerns (as in any urban area) but these things are being overcome. And it also comes to mind that there have been some very disturbing incidents in CWE -- including against young women -- yet it doesn't have the same stigma as downtown.

Back to the developer, the three locations he mentioned he was looking at are interesting and each has its positives.... iirc Tucker & Wash, 15th & Locust & 20th b/w Lucas & Delmar.... the first is in the thick of things and probably the highest asking price per sq. ft.. The latter area is slated to get an additional boost from the Intrada Lofts project. But to me the 1500 block of Locust has a tremendous amount of potential upside in the long term.... if NLEC issues get worked out and the Saint Louis Streetcar moves along 14th as proposed, that area could be super for investors. (And the vacant Skyhouse lot would certainly be developed.) If the price is right, that may be the one to go for.

seanmcelligott644 · PostApr 07, 2014#1772014-04-07T05:38+00:00

I have a few Ideas to boost downtown but some would be controversial and some are no-brainers. Some can be done in the short term and some may take years to complete.

1 Rebuild the sidewalks and put in newer streetlights and replace all the old 1960s streetlights.

2 Closes NLEC, The 7/11 (at 17 and pine) and the bars that attract the wrong and nuisance crowds. Also ban having open alcohol outside unless at outdoor registrant sets.

3 Downtown needs more apartments in 500 to 800 dollar range and use them to help fill up large buildings like the Butler, Jefferson arms, and Railway exchange. It would add a lot more young people like me downtown and create higher density.

4 Over time raze the HUD housing around downtown and build mixed use and mixed income urban neighborhoods with at the most 15% of the unites low income.

5 Have downtown east and west be in one ward in 2020 if the downtown residents were united under one aldermen then places like NLEC would probably all ready be shut down and the residents would have a untied voice in city gov.

6 Place city hall, old police station, civil courts buildings on the historic registers list.

7 Create and narrative and advertise downtown (I know people that think wash ave in mostly vacant and or low income buildings.)

jstriebel · PostApr 07, 2014#1782014-04-07T06:00+00:00

To #2... something I recently learned (not by being cited—just research): there actually is an outdoor open container ban in St. Louis. It's often flexed for events, and rarely enforced even on normal days, but the ban actually does exist. I've been told by many it's not illegal in St. Louis, so I was surprised to learn this.

In fact, it's not illegal in the state of Missouri, but many municipalities have their own ordinance against it, including St. Louis.

Gateway City · PostApr 07, 2014#1792014-04-07T08:15+00:00

That's funny, I've totally walked around DT drinking a can of beer and no brown bag. Didn't seem like a big deal. I've seen others do it and I've never heard of it being enforced.

roger wyoming II · PostApr 07, 2014#1802014-04-07T13:35+00:00

Just a reminder of what's going on with downtown residential projects:

Downtown Residential Pipeline:

Recently available:
-Millenium Center's Gallery 515, 102 units (CBD)
- Lacassian Lofts, 27 units (DW)
- City Parc on Pine, 149 units (DW) (active senior units)
-Tower OPOP, 132 units (CBD)

Total Units: 410 units (149 reserved for seniors)

Probable 2014 construction starts, 2015 availability
- Arcade Building, approx. 280 units (CBD)
-Chemical Building, approx. 120 units (CBD)
-Alverne , approx. 81 units (CBD)
- 1900 Pine, approx. 87 units
- Intrada Lofts, 57 units
- Beaumont Building, 70 units (technically Midtown but on border w. DW)

Total Units: 695

In addition, Plaza Square can be expected to see higher occupancy (especially if the senior housing group picks up the other vacant property as contemplated) and there are smaller projects like 1214 Washington adding a sprinkling of units. I'm sure we'll see announcements this year for other historic rehabs and perhaps more Millennium Center type partial residential conversion of commercial towers. BPV or Drury new construction would be icing. Hopefully next year will mark an acceleration of downtown growth from a steady 500 or so a year to 750-1,000 a year,

GHSTL · PostApr 07, 2014#1812014-04-07T13:52+00:00

Just a minor note -- the Intrada Lofts (2035 Lucas) are in Downtown West, not Midtown. Midtown's eastern boundary is Jefferson.

jstriebel · PostApr 07, 2014#1822014-04-07T14:56+00:00

Gateway City wrote:That's funny, I've totally walked around DT drinking a can of beer and no brown bag. Didn't seem like a big deal. I've seen others do it and I've never heard of it being enforced.

Yep. Seems they selectively enforce it. And even then not very often. Bigger things to worry about, I suppose.

onecity · PostApr 07, 2014#1832014-04-07T15:20+00:00

4 Over time raze the HUD housing around downtown and build mixed use and mixed income urban neighborhoods with at the most 15% of the unites low income.

This is a big idea. The 15% part, that is. Baltimore, as a result of an ACLU lawsuit, changed the way it issues Section 8 vouchers, such that recipients are required to rent and reside in "higher opportunity" areas for two years, or nabes with less than 5 or 10% poverty and less than 30% minority.

roger wyoming II · PostApr 07, 2014#1842014-04-07T15:22+00:00

GHSTL wrote:Just a minor note -- the Intrada Lofts (2035 Lucas) are in Downtown West, not Midtown. Midtown's eastern boundary is Jefferson.

Thanks, my bad. I was thinking of the 70 unit Beaumont building which is just west of Jefferson... too many projects going in to keep straight! Add in that, and that's 700 units that have a good chance of getting started this year in or very near downtown proper.

Speaking of downtown boundaries, it is interesting to note that anything that might get built in the Bottle District would actually be Columbus Square officially but still counted as downtown for the Downtown Now folks, etc. I also think McKee wants to see primarily commercial at the ample amount of cleared property south of Cass/ east of Tucker but I would think mixed-use could also be attractive... anyway, that, too, would be Columbus Square.

wabash · PostApr 07, 2014#1852014-04-07T19:17+00:00

I've been surprised recently by how often the Bottle District is invoked as a possibility for downtown growth. Maybe it's just that BPV opened and the proposal for the Bottle District shared a lot of similarities with BPV. But the idea that was the Bottle District seems completely dead at this point - a casualty of the Great Recession. The proposal itself seemed to be a product of the overzealous overreaching atmosphere of '06-'07.

Between BPV, Wash. Ave., Laclede's Landing (including Lumiere), and to a lesser extent Union Station, downtown seems to be at capacity for the time being when it comes to entertainment districts. BPV has far superior centrality, walkability, transit access, and pre-existing parking infrastructure and yet has only barely alluded to possible visions for future phases. Considering the shortcomings of the Bottle District site and the questionable future of the Rams in St. Louis I think we can safely put the Bottle District or any iteration thereof to rest.

roger wyoming II · PostApr 07, 2014#1862014-04-07T19:49+00:00

^ I think Bottle District is very difficult site, but there is a rumor out there that Clayco is working with McKee on plans.... I have no idea on veracity.

Gateway City · PostApr 07, 2014#1872014-04-07T20:17+00:00

There is a link somewhere on this site, possibly this very thread, to an interview from early last year where Clayco said that they are still working on the Bottle District site with McKee. I don't think much will happen until:

1) McKee's phase I, just west of Union Station

2) BPV's success can be gauged after the completion of at least one tower

3) We figure out what's going to happen with the Dome, whether the Rams stay or not

Presbyterian · PostApr 07, 2014#1882014-04-07T22:09+00:00

For the Bottle District, Clayco and McKee have been awarded Property Tax Abatement, a $1.5 million Land Assemblage Tax Credit and $51 million in Tax Increment Financing. And McKee invested $12 million in buying the land. Those are all incentives to build something, be it a stadium or low- and mid-rise commercial. I agree McKee is probably trying to work the Rams angle first. He has suggested that much.

mattonarsenal · PostApr 08, 2014#1892014-04-08T14:16+00:00

seanmcelligott644 wrote: 4 Over time raze the HUD housing around downtown and build mixed use and mixed income urban neighborhoods with at the most 15% of the unites low income.

Could you or someone else be more specific about which properties should be torn down? The "HUD" term is often used as a generic for affordable housing, when it is rarely HUD public housing or even subsidized housing. Also Citywalk on Euclid (with the Whole Foods) and York House on Lindell are technically HUD housing, since they are both financed by HUD. So let's be specific.

There is very little public housing left in the area around downtown, and most developments are mixed income. Curious what housing around downtown people would like torn down.

PostApr 08, 2014#1902014-04-08T14:17+00:00

seanmcelligott644 wrote: 4 Over time raze the HUD housing around downtown and build mixed use and mixed income urban neighborhoods with at the most 15% of the unites low income.

Could you or someone else be more specific about which properties should be torn down? The "HUD" term is often used as a generic for affordable housing, when it is rarely HUD public housing or even subsidized housing. Also Citywalk on Euclid (with the Whole Foods) and York House on Lindell are technically HUD housing, since they are both financed by HUD. So let's be specific.

There is very little public housing left in the area around downtown, and most developments are mixed income. Curious what housing around downtown people would like torn down.

STLEnginerd · PostApr 08, 2014#1912014-04-08T15:23+00:00

There is very little public housing left in the area around downtown, and most developments are mixed income. Curious what housing around downtown people would like torn down.

I think a lot of people see the housing in Columbus Square, Carr Square, and Peabody Dart Webb as being HUD. That said I don't necessarily support tearing it all down, ESPECIALLY without a replacement plan with secured financing.

Most of the housing in the area is newer (80s and 90s) and my main gripe would be not so much the front facades, but the gaps in between the houses which are usually ugly vinyl. (example: 1271 S Tucker Blvd, St. Louis, MO) My preference would be to fill the gaps with smaller 1 and 2 bed houses, forming continuous unbroken blocks of row houses. Of course unfortunately the owners probably like having side yards, and acquiring these small spaces and rezoning them for infill is probably horribly complex and unprofitable for any large scale developer.

Although the "Castle" Condos between 11th and Hadley on Biddle ARE SO AWFUL I would probably support removing without even having a replacement plan. (1101 Biddle Street, St. Louis, MO)

Presbyterian · PostApr 08, 2014#1922014-04-08T16:18+00:00

^I've heard several people comment about the Castles condos. I've always liked how they define the streetscape far better than most other 1980s housing projects. (Compare this to the suburban and parking-centric Murphy Blair Apartments further north.) And I like that each unit has a front door on the sidewalk. I'm curious to understand what about this building people find so objectionable.

danryan1 · PostApr 08, 2014#1932014-04-08T17:39+00:00

^^^

I agree. I find them to be interesting and unique (at least for St. Louis) urban infill.

debaliviere · PostApr 08, 2014#1942014-04-08T21:11+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:^I've heard several people comment about the Castles condos. I've always liked how they define the streetscape far better than most other 1980s housing projects. (Compare this to the suburban and parking-centric Murphy Blair Apartments further north.) And I like that each unit has a front door on the sidewalk. I'm curious to understand what about this building people find so objectionable.

I certainly don't have any problem with them.

I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen more townhouse-style development on the periphery of downtown.

STLEnginerd · PostApr 08, 2014#1952014-04-08T23:05+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:
^I've heard several people comment about the Castles condos. I've always liked how they define the streetscape far better than most other 1980s housing projects. (Compare this to the suburban and parking-centric Murphy Blair Apartments further north.) And I like that each unit has a front door on the sidewalk. I'm curious to understand what about this building people find so objectionable.

Well i usually would agree aesthetics are trumped by good form. And Castle Condos have reasonably good urban form. But i just hate hate hate them for their aesthics. I guess you could say the architect was avant garde for allowing his 5 year old design the buildings exterior appearance

Is Murphy Blair the terrible red and green roofed building in Old North? If so I agree they are awful but they fill to great an area to allow myself to condone their destruction without something better offered as their replacement. It would not be difficult though. The Castle Condos are a half a block and so offend my aesthetic preferences that i allow myself the pleasure of imagining their destruction.

But thats just one person's opinion.

roger wyoming II · PostApr 09, 2014#1962014-04-09T21:45+00:00

Positive article from Business Journal on new rental units throughout the city and region....
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/prin ... -boom.html

Basically millennial preferences and tight mortgage/lending standards are fueling somewhat of a boom. For the city, basically some renewed activity on new multifamily construction permits and pretty impressive growth in rehab permits. 2013 was more than double 2012 and Jan/Feb are off to a great start compared to same time last year.

PostApr 11, 2014#1972014-04-11T14:35+00:00

Downtown Living tour is set for May 3:

http://www.downtownstl.org/Live/Explore ... vents.aspx

Webster U is a sponsor

markinlondon · PostApr 13, 2014#1982014-04-13T00:44+00:00

The streets of downtown sure have been busy since it's warmed up and baseball has started. You can feel the energy down here after a dead winter. Looking forward to Roberts Tower opening, but I suspect the higher prices might delay a quick fill. And I believe we now have at least two MBL baseball players call downtown STL home!

seanmcelligott644 · PostApr 13, 2014#1992014-04-13T02:37+00:00

markinlondon wrote:The streets of downtown sure have been busy since it's warmed up and baseball has started. You can feel the energy down here after a dead winter. Looking forward to Roberts Tower opening, but I suspect the higher prices might delay a quick fill. And I believe we now have at least two MBL baseball players call downtown STL home!

I think what could help the Roberts tower would be when work on the arcade and chem buildings start. Once the op square comes together all the the buildings would boost each other.

roger wyoming II · PostApr 13, 2014#2002014-04-13T18:51+00:00

markinlondon wrote:The streets of downtown sure have been busy since it's warmed up and baseball has started. You can feel the energy down here after a dead winter.

Great to hear! This afternoon was set up to be something magical downtown.... just think if it were a sunny day, Cubs in town and a dominant Conference leading Blues crushing the Red Wings as they end the regular season.

Downtown Residential Market Thriving

Choose Display Mode