Or Metro employees could take the MetroLink from the Civic Center Station to the CBD (8th & Pine or 6th & Wash).roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think its a great question and I'm torn. On the one hand we need to saturate the core cbd if we're ever going to get the kind of retail & vitality that we all want but on the other a govt. agency such as Metro might be one of the few opportunities to activate an important historic building as creative office space. While I might be lean a tad towards the core CBD in this instance I'd be happy with either and believe both would be better than Metro's current spot.
(On the subject of being in the heart of the CBD or just outside it, walking from the Muni Courts to the core CBD requires crossing both Tucker & Market in a sucky pedestrian environment.... depending on signals that could be a few minutes and then once crossed it takes a few more blocks before hitting any density of restaurants, shops, etc.. upper Wash Ave. probably would fare better.)
Saying there's no need to add additional inventory is not entirely accurate. It's the new inventory that attracts new tenants. The last 3 office projects that were announced have filled (Cupples 9, Park Pacific) or are already spoken for (GenAM). To add more office jobs, we need new, better office space. Kind of like a car manufacturer - they don't wait until they sell all of their 2014 models before they release the 2015.debaliviere wrote:True, not to mention that there is no need to add additional inventory to an office market that's already flooded with vacant space.roger wyoming II wrote:^ Low occupancy in those central office towers means greatly reduced foot traffic in a dense area. Filling them up will bring more retail and vibrancy. It might not seem like a big deal when Laclede Gas moves a couple hundred workers a few blocks to SoMa or someone choose the Civic Center area over the CBD, but our dispersal of office workers from the core of the core really does diminish the foot traffic counts that businesses need to survive. I agree we have to weigh that against the prospects of failing to put key historics outside this core back into play.
You mentioned 505 Washington the other day - Metro would be a great tenant for that building. 600 Washington and 705 Olive would work as well. They also would've been a good tenant to fill some of the space Laclede Gas is vacating, but I guess it's unclear as to how much of that building will remain dedicated to office space.
Metro would occupy the last building on Market which would likely spurn a lot more development than them occupying 600 Wash or 720 Olive.
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^ I'm not sure I follow; I agree that downtown can use a greater range of office space and lacks modern, flexible Class A space that many tenants are seeking (and part of the reason why I don't put a modest new tower out of the question if that is what an anchor really wants.)
But office upgrades almost always occur when a large tenant is moving in, millions of $$ were spent to build out new creative office space in the Cupples 9 and Park Pacific as well refurbish the traditional GenAm office space. Those $$ just as easily could have been spent on any necessary upgrades in the core. (The owners of 720 Market offered an almost equivalent amount of $$ as the subsidy Laclede Gas received to renovate the existing offices and other tower owners would have been delighted to build out space for Laclede.) So the issue remains how much of a retardant is stretching significant office employment outside of the core on achieving the level of density that is needed to support a vigorous retail environment.
^^ Metrolink can be a helpful tool for shuttling workers/residents/visitors among Greater Downtown... is the downtown zone still free daytime? And hopefully a Saint Louis Streetcar in the future as well. But there is no substitute for having plentiful bodies within a couple blocks of your storefront for thriving retail.
But office upgrades almost always occur when a large tenant is moving in, millions of $$ were spent to build out new creative office space in the Cupples 9 and Park Pacific as well refurbish the traditional GenAm office space. Those $$ just as easily could have been spent on any necessary upgrades in the core. (The owners of 720 Market offered an almost equivalent amount of $$ as the subsidy Laclede Gas received to renovate the existing offices and other tower owners would have been delighted to build out space for Laclede.) So the issue remains how much of a retardant is stretching significant office employment outside of the core on achieving the level of density that is needed to support a vigorous retail environment.
^^ Metrolink can be a helpful tool for shuttling workers/residents/visitors among Greater Downtown... is the downtown zone still free daytime? And hopefully a Saint Louis Streetcar in the future as well. But there is no substitute for having plentiful bodies within a couple blocks of your storefront for thriving retail.
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I thought there was suppose be some proposal or project going on at the muni building? What ever happened to that and if so could be the perfect space for metro even though a bit of a walk from the CBD still you are right there minutes from everything. Im curious whats going to happen to the old police headquarters does anyone by chance know what will happen to that building i know it needs millions in upgrades but i think that could be suitable for residential or even metro as well.. Also curious about the At&T building as its nearly vacant now would be great to lure a decent sized company to it. As in new office space i would entertain the thought of some sort of new office residential building combination going up not sure when but i do think the time is nearing specially if other cities are doing the same however I'm partial on either filling up our current buildings or building new.
Here's a report on the area's office markets....
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 1bf43.html
As a whole things continue to improve a bit and some think there might even be potential for new construction in West County. But "Downtown St. Louis, by far the big dog in the region’s nearly 50 million-square-foot office market, is the runt of the litter when it comes to growth. Downtown’s vacancy rate of 20 percent is only slightly lower from early this year. Slowing falling vacancy and flat rental rates should continue, Colliers said."
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 1bf43.html
As a whole things continue to improve a bit and some think there might even be potential for new construction in West County. But "Downtown St. Louis, by far the big dog in the region’s nearly 50 million-square-foot office market, is the runt of the litter when it comes to growth. Downtown’s vacancy rate of 20 percent is only slightly lower from early this year. Slowing falling vacancy and flat rental rates should continue, Colliers said."
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Edit: ^ Roger Wyoming III's first post.... I'm such a proud papa!
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Edit: ^ Roger Wyoming III's first post.... I'm such a proud papa!
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seems like this is due, primarily, to the scarcity of rental properties downtown. if more rental properties were built, or more properties converted to rental, we'd likely see rental growth.roger wyoming II wrote:...flat rental rates should continue, Colliers said."
There's a Colliers International "for lease" sign outside of the Municipal courts, so I presume it's still moving forward.RedOctober wrote:I thought there was suppose be some proposal or project going on at the muni building? What ever happened to that and if so could be the perfect space for metro even though a bit of a walk from the CBD still you are right there minutes from everything.
Also, whats the fascination of "CBD vs outside of CBD"? We're talking about 14th street here, not 20th street. I agree that Tucker can be a barrier, but the Municipal courts building isn't on an island. There are plenty of people/workers at the city buildings and court buildings who traverse Market & Tucker on a daily basis. If a company like Metro was to occupy the Municipal court building, I don't think the employees would be doing anything out of the ordinary when it comes to walking to places to eat for lunch. I bet they would rather be on the west side of Tucker than the east side of hwy 70/44/55 or whatever they're calling it now.
But like you said, even though it's outside of the CBD, you're still a few minutes from everything.
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^ I think part of my fascination is the recognition that we're not done with our hemmoraging of jobs out of the core CBD area north of Market and east of Tucker.... the area willl be losing hundreds of workers from AT&T, Laclede Gas & HOK over the course of the next year or so; we'll be scrambling just to make up that lost ground let alone gain daytime population.
Foot traffic is everything in Downtown retail, and while the significant relocation of office from one side of Market to the other will help BPV & Cupples businesses, these are not the areas that need the most help or are as criticial to Downtown's success. While not trying to make a federal case of it. relocating Stewart Title to 500 N. Broadway and Metrolink to a traditional office tower in the core CBD will be very helpful to a critical area sorely in need of help. Arcade-Wright/Webster U project can't open soon enough.
Foot traffic is everything in Downtown retail, and while the significant relocation of office from one side of Market to the other will help BPV & Cupples businesses, these are not the areas that need the most help or are as criticial to Downtown's success. While not trying to make a federal case of it. relocating Stewart Title to 500 N. Broadway and Metrolink to a traditional office tower in the core CBD will be very helpful to a critical area sorely in need of help. Arcade-Wright/Webster U project can't open soon enough.
Roger, i see what you're saying, but if we wait to fill the old office space before new space is built, we'll be waiting forever. The AT&T tower, 720 Olive, and Met Square will be ok. Actually, those buildings losing tenants could be good for the market. It gives the owners an opportunity to upgrade. Look at 500 N Broadway for example, after Lewis Rice moved, the building owners renovated the lobby and landed new tenants. Laclede Gas moved to a new building because they wanted a fresh building and fresh space. Now 720 Olive will be converted for a new use. We can't assume that just because a space is vacant, it is usable or even attractive to a company looking for space. If Laclede gas would have stayed, then the GenAm building probably would NOT be getting renovated right now. If Osborn Barr (and others) would have stayed in their buildings, then Cupples 9 would probably still be vacant. Sure all of those companies could have gone to buildings in the core, but I think a larger impact was made with them going into a newly developed building. Same thing with Metro.. if they go to the municipal courts building, additional development will be spurred on the municipal courts parking lot. Not the case at any other buildings that were mentioned for them.
For (some) outside investors, downtown is a barometer of health of the region. If outside investors see more of whats going on (Arcade renovation, GenAM renovation), then they will be more inclined to invest. Metro moving to Met Square or 720 Olive doesn't signal "new investment" to outside investors, it just means old space is getting filled - which is positive but not nearly as exciting as a new development.
For (some) outside investors, downtown is a barometer of health of the region. If outside investors see more of whats going on (Arcade renovation, GenAM renovation), then they will be more inclined to invest. Metro moving to Met Square or 720 Olive doesn't signal "new investment" to outside investors, it just means old space is getting filled - which is positive but not nearly as exciting as a new development.
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Interesting look at the Pittsburgh market....
with occupancy in the mid-90's and space hard to come by for tenants, several developers are hoping to land anchors for several projects that are being pitched in and near downtown:
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/20 ... 1410170069
But with the high cost of new construction. tenants aren't exactly rushing in. Downtown currently has the monster PNC tower under construction so I'm not sure if some of its current space will be on the market after the move... there also is a sizeable mixed-use project that will open next fall.
with occupancy in the mid-90's and space hard to come by for tenants, several developers are hoping to land anchors for several projects that are being pitched in and near downtown:
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/20 ... 1410170069
But with the high cost of new construction. tenants aren't exactly rushing in. Downtown currently has the monster PNC tower under construction so I'm not sure if some of its current space will be on the market after the move... there also is a sizeable mixed-use project that will open next fall.
A Metro employee told me that they've been told they will be moving to Met Square. I believe the move will happen sometime in the first half of next year.
We are metro, we need a tax increase or we will cut bus routes and peoples pensions... well, we got our tax increase, now let's move into the premier office building in downtown St. Louis. What a joke. Some B and C buildings downtown are more than half vacant, I don't even care how good of a "deal" they got.
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They're clearing out the Laclede's Landing building for another project there.
Metro's garage is being demolished and the Landing will be a construction zone for the next couple of years, so they decided to move.roger wyoming II wrote:^ residential?
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^ presby seems to be suggesting there is something in the works at the building itself.... any insight on that?
So apparently Little Ceasar's is doing pretty well (who knew?) and they'll build an 8 story, 200,000 sq. ft. building next to their existing headquarters at the Fox Theater:
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It'll be able to accommodate up to 600 additional employees expected to be hired in the coming years.
I believe that our CBD might be able to accommodate a modest new office building like this that is anchored by a tenant seeking additional, modern space; but I'm trying to come up with companies similar to Little Caesar's that own their building and may need to expand.... we have companies like WFA and Purina on our downtown edge but I'm coming up rather empty on company-owned buildings in the CBD. There's Stifel, which is growing, but who else is there? (I believe AT&T owns the older Pine St. building but obviously they are not expanding.)
It'll be able to accommodate up to 600 additional employees expected to be hired in the coming years.
I believe that our CBD might be able to accommodate a modest new office building like this that is anchored by a tenant seeking additional, modern space; but I'm trying to come up with companies similar to Little Caesar's that own their building and may need to expand.... we have companies like WFA and Purina on our downtown edge but I'm coming up rather empty on company-owned buildings in the CBD. There's Stifel, which is growing, but who else is there? (I believe AT&T owns the older Pine St. building but obviously they are not expanding.)
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^The owner of LC, Mike Illitch, owns the Redwings and Tigers too. He also rehabbed and owns that Fox theatre.
^^The fact that a Pizza company can actively market a Nacho cheese pizza w/ pretzel crust and expand its headquarters gives me serious concerns about the future of humanity.
^Well put.
Pi Pizza modern corporate headquarters downtown. They seem to be slowly spreading their brand across the country.
Pi Pizza modern corporate headquarters downtown. They seem to be slowly spreading their brand across the country.
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^ build that sucker as a replica of the symbol!
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@downtownstlouis: Exciting prospective "Adaptive reuse has been going on for years, rarely do you get the USAs largest vacant office bldg." @DougWoodruffSTL
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The Adler Lofts has leased its first floor for office space.... some event planning firm moving from Hampton Ave. will be taking up 14,000 sq. ft.. It won't make up for the CPI loss, but a bit of good news for that western edge of the loft district.